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Old July 11, 2013, 02:24 AM   #251
maestro pistolero
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MLeake, I actually agreed that it may have been unwise for GZ to exit the truck, and made an analogy that a rape victim wearing a short skirt and showing cleavage in a bad part of town may be unwise, but that it no way would make them responsible for a sexual assault.

Wise? No. Illegal or even responsible victimization? Absolutely not.

I agree with you completely as to the tactical failure, as I described in this earlier post:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...0&postcount=48

Quote:
I know this isn't a thread about tactics, so I'll limit my opinion to the following: There were at least two tactical errors from Zimmerman that could have avoided the outcome. 1, Having a gun and no pepper spray, and 2, Fumbling for his phone instead of maintaining focus on Martin once Martin announced his presence "yo, you got a problem?". Zimmerman never noticed Martin closing distance to punch him until it was too late. A shot of OC at that point might have bought him at least a few seconds to escape.

Back to the subject at hand. Neither of those errors have bearing on whether Zimmerman feared for life or limb at the time of the shot.
It looks like you and are pretty much on the same page.

Regards.

Last edited by maestro pistolero; July 11, 2013 at 02:29 AM.
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Old July 11, 2013, 09:31 AM   #252
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't think they proved Murder 2...and last I heard the Prosecution is asking that the jury be allowed to consider Manslaughter.
And that's what worries me. Proving murder requires an element of malice; manslaughter can be sold under the imperfect defense doctrine, which is easier for the prosecution.
But - If I'm not mistaken - the jury won't know the penalties available for the charges. I believe Manslaughter can carry a more harsh penalty than Murder 2 even though it's the "lesser charge".
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Old July 11, 2013, 09:41 AM   #253
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GZ; tactics, Superman Sydrome....

Id say that in this event, one of the few things I agree with the state prosecutors & State Atty's Office is that Zimmerman could have IDed himself to Martin or explained who he was early on, which he reportedly did not do.
This is sometimes called "announcing your office" by LE or private security.
GZ was in plain-clothes & didn't have a uniform or garment that IDed him as a neighborhood watch member(HOA security patrol).
If GZ had taken those pro-active steps or those exchanges were witnessed or recorded by others then his actions might have earned more support. Zimmerman would also be less inclined to have a racial bias or a civil rights issue too because it would be documented that Martin attacked him or fought with him even though he knew of GZ's status.

I think GZ may have had what I call; superman sydrome.
When you are in a special position or have special weapons or authority & you are in plain-clothes, NO ONE can tell that or know that just by sight.
You need to ID yourself ASAP or have a badge/patch/raid jacket/etc.
There have been many incidents where sworn LE officers or "good guys" have been killed because they were in plain-clothes, saw a crime in progress, drew their sidearm, then were killed by other LE officers on the scene.
The first female FBI special agent killed in the line of duty died that way.
She was on a bank robbery detail, left her assigned post at a active scene, then got shot to death by other agents.
Another Orlando area event in the mid 2000s involved a young plain clothes police officer named Mario Jenkins. Jenkins got into a huge fight at a college football game with a group of drunk students. He drew his Glock sidearm(his only weapon) & was shot multiple times by a Orlando PD bike officer(in uniform).

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Old July 11, 2013, 10:02 AM   #254
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A blurb on the news this morning mentioned that the judge will be instructing the jury to consider a lesser sentence of manslaughter or even aggravated assault.

Zimmerman's lawyer said that they didn't ask for a SYG hearing initially because they mean to hold the option in reserve. If Zimmerman is found guilty, they're going to request the hearing as a means of appeal. Is that feasible or likely to be granted?
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Old July 11, 2013, 10:04 AM   #255
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aggravated assault will not be allowed, but the state is trying to get a Murder 3 included with the felony being "child abuse".
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Old July 11, 2013, 10:38 AM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Zimmerman's lawyer said that they didn't ask for a SYG hearing initially because they mean to hold the option in reserve. If Zimmerman is found guilty, they're going to request the hearing as a means of appeal. Is that feasible or likely to be granted?
SYG hearings in Florida are held to seek immunity from having a trial, not to appeal the verdict of a trial that has been held. At any rate, Zimmerman specifically waived his right to a SYG hearing at the beginning of the criminal trial.
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Old July 11, 2013, 10:39 AM   #257
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Quote:
the state is trying to get a Murder 3 included with the felony being "child abuse".
Just when you think you've heard everything...
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Old July 11, 2013, 10:42 AM   #258
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Especially when the child abuse aspect of the law requires the defendant know he was dealing with a minor unlike the assault on the elderly law in which you do not have to know the person has reached the age of legal description "elderly"...

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Old July 11, 2013, 10:49 AM   #259
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The judge also refused to instruct the jury that following somebody for the purposes or reporting activity or location to the police is NOT illegal, or to instruct the prosecution not to tell the jury that following in such manner is illegal.

She really is doing a fine job of creating the appearance of partiality to the prosecutor, and setting up a chain of what I would have to think are reversible errors.
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:02 AM   #260
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Maybe it's the poker player in me reading tells, but I have a feeling the judge has already decided she isn't going to allow the 3rd degree(child abuse) charge.

Edit: This truly has gone into the bizarre.
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:03 AM   #261
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As to the following, she said that the argument could be made in closing.

As far as reversible, she said specifically that can be argued on appeal.
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:07 AM   #262
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Glenn, she did say that.

However, if she does not so instruct the jury;

and

if the prosecution is allowed to make the argument in its closing (which is AFTER the defense's);

then the jury will go into deliberation having freshly been told by the prosecution that the follow itself constitutes initiating a fight, without instruction from the judge that this is not so under the law.

That is a big genie to put back in a bottle, but I don't believe the defense gets a word after the prosecution's closing.

I don't think setting the jury up to decide whether the defense attorney or the prosecutor is correct on a point of Florida statute is a wise course for the judge.
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:17 AM   #263
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The DA will speak, the Defense will speak their case.

We will see if the DA says explicitly that following is a crime. That was the argument.

If the jury can't understand both sides - then why have juries?

Folks are grasping at straws to show that Zim will go down due to a stupid jury.

None of you know about that or what constitutes reversible error when this is done.
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:24 AM   #264
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The schedule I saw on Andrew Branca's commentary was that the prosecution makes closing statements today, the defense tomorrow, and THEN the prosecution gets a rebuttal of what the defense said. So the prosecutors get the last say for the jury to remember.
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:29 AM   #265
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I'm wondering, if GZ is aquitted can he sue TM parents for expenses and so forth?

Aren't parents of non-emancipated minors financially resposible for their minor child's actions?
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:34 AM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
None of you know about that or what constitutes reversible error when this is done.
I'd like to know more about "what constitutes reversible error when this is done". What have you observed in this trial? Since the judge admitted the tox report, are there any reversible errors remaining wrt the judge? Are there any reversible errors elsewhere?
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:39 AM   #267
MLeake
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Glenn,

Nobody is saying they know for sure what will happen.

However, it isn't all that hard to look up what things might constitute reversible errors. Instructions relative to crimes charged, or the relevance of applicable statutes and case law, are frequent targets for appeal.
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:44 AM   #268
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Quote:
I'd like to know more about "what constitutes reversible error when this is done". What have you observed in this trial? Since the judge admitted the tox report, are there any reversible errors remaining wrt the judge? Are there any reversible errors elsewhere?
The toxicology report evidence wouldn't be "reversible" error since it tended to favor the defense and the prosecution cannot appeal a not guilty verdict. In criminal cases, reversible error typically refers to legal errors/wrongs committed by the judge or prosecution which impaired the defendant's right to a fair trial. Minor errors of small consequence don't generally qualify.

In all trials, there are evidentiary rules which determine what can and cannot be admitted as evidence (this applies to both prosecution and defense evidence, although in different ways). The judge has discretion/latitude within those guidelines in what he/she may admit into evidence. It can be reversible error when the judge's use of discretion steps outside those guidelines. It also can be reversible error when the judge or prosecution misapplies the law in front of the jury, such as in jury instructions, closing arguments, etc. There's no cut-and-dried standard for determining that which is reversible error and that which is not - that's why we have appeals courts - at the end of the day if Zimmerman is convicted the Florida Court of Appeals will be asked (and will very likely hear) the defense's appeal. If the Court of Appeals declines to overturn a guilty verdict, then Zimmerman can appeal to the Florida Supreme Court. Failing that, he might attempt a federal appeal, though that is a far more difficult proposition since there don't seem to be any federal or constitutional issues here.
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:45 AM   #269
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The judge stated that the third degree with child abuse has to include intent which the state did not include in their information. I believe she was giving them the out.
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:50 AM   #270
Glenn E. Meyer
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We will know what is reversible when the next court says so. Thus, claims of surety here are somewhat premature.
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Old July 11, 2013, 12:08 PM   #271
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Glenn,

The prosecution wanted the jury instructions to mostly say "defendant" while the defense wanted the instructions to say "George Zimmerman" each time. Is there a behavioral response that people are more sympathetic to a named person than to the impersonal term "defendant?"
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Old July 11, 2013, 12:12 PM   #272
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No Murder 3, judge will not allow it.
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Old July 11, 2013, 12:24 PM   #273
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We often discuss here about how much to say to police after a self defense shooting. In this case GZ reenacted the events for the Sanford police, on camera. This, I believe, proved to be extremely helpful to his case. His video was shown as evidence, giving his side of the story, without him having to take the stand and be cross-examined.

Something to think about if you are ever involved in such a thing.
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Old July 11, 2013, 01:19 PM   #274
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I think amongst the prosecutions many mistakes, showing Zimmerman's interviews during the trial is close to the top.
It allowed Zimmerman to testify without cross examination. It set Zimmerman's version of events as the baseline description.
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Old July 11, 2013, 01:23 PM   #275
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Post #263: SYG hearing/O'Mara

Per post #263, Florida doesn't use DAs or Asst DAs, they elect State's Attys & use Assistant State's Attys as prosecutors.
States Attys are elected like District Attys and have legal powers IAW the Florida Constitution & state laws/statues.
Interesting, unlike some states like CA or VA, State's Attys & Asst State Atty's are not sworn LE officers & have no arrest/police powers.

I disagree with GZ's main atty; Mark O'Mera. He should have allowed Zimmerman to go thru a formal Stand Your Ground hearing first.
If he was cleared by a judge, the dog & pony state trial would be avoided. If he lost, it wouldn't look go in the media but GZ would still have a criminal case.
In the good ole US of A, you are innocent until proven guilty.

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