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Old July 13, 2013, 06:01 PM   #76
Constantine
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Talk Me Into A Glock 19

I like how TR took care of that one before I did.

I find that rude. Why even comment on the thread? Morally, it's just not nice.

I just got a Ford Explorer!

"They're garbage! Here are a dozen personal preference reasons I conjured up as to why!"

Not nice at all.



OP. I recommend you leave it factory and shoot it a lot and get a feel of it. I run my CCW Glock's completely stock with an exception of night sights. Just the G19 has the G17 trigger but that's no biggie lol.

Range report soon.
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Old July 13, 2013, 06:20 PM   #77
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I'd say that the Beretta PX4, STI GP100 and some of the H&K polymer-framed pistols have better triggers than the Ruger polymer-framed pistols I've tried. In fact, I'd even rank some of the Kahr triggers as being a little
How did the GP-100 get in there. Ruger should have stuck with the Security-Six trigger system, anyway.

TunnelRat was correct that I was making more of a comparison between striker-fired poly pistols. And I'll repeat what I said, this is after an initial 300 round break-in period which you may or may not have experienced, But getting to specific cases, I just sold an XDm that had a PRP trigger kit in it that broke at 3.5# or less. The XDm being single-action in operation with no take-up and then lightening it's trigger in addition to having a precise over-travel stop, you'll need a custom 1911 to do better, IMO. In fact, my trigger was too light for carry since it had 0 take-up before sear release.

As far as Kahr's, my shooting partner had a P9 where the forward thin steel rails embedded in the frame came apart from the frame at a fairly low round count, so you can have all the Kahr's you want. If I had to have one, it would have a steel frame. And he enjoyed more than a few nightmares dealing with their CS.

And among DA/SA pistol trigger systems, the H&Ks hardly distinguish themselves and compared to SIG/Sauer pistols, they leave much to be desired. What you end up with is the most expensive of all poly-pistols while it doesn't do anything better than any of them unless you're a fan of the decocking system they actually copied from Taurus and you get a polygonal bore to deal with on top of that. Since H&K poly's cost as much or more than metal framed SIG/Sauer . . .Beretta PX4s aren't exactly setting the world on fire either in terms of trigger quality or accuracy.

The thing I'm talking about is experienced by many Ruger SR 9/40/45 shooters. The trigger is similar to Glocks as it pre-cocks the striker, but the pull required to complete the rearward travel and release of the striker is shorter than the Glocks. Once the Ruger is broken-in the weight of the take-up pull will become lighter then the weight req'd to release the striker. In other words, the trigger can be stacked easily for precision shooting or it can be fired in one continuous motion. Before my SR9 arrived, I inquired about different trigger kits and several owners told me they weren't necessary once the pistol was broke-in. I mistook them as inexperienced. I added a Ghost Ultimate trigger bar that is similar to the Glocks connector. My trigger got so good that I removed the Ghost part and re-installed the factory part to give enough pull weight as to not be too light. The addition of a manual safety is very logical and these pistols should have greater appeal to 1911 shooters wanting to add a poly-pistol. With the safety engaged, a holstered pistol can not go out-of-battery and if the shooter chooses, it's not absolutely necessary to carry with the safety engaged since besides the trigger safety, a take-up pull will still be required.

Then there's the little matter of the Ruger being built stronger than any of them except that XD/XDms are pretty solid. The Rugers are still the thinnest among all double-stack poly-pistols.

Last edited by 57K; July 13, 2013 at 06:51 PM.
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Old July 13, 2013, 08:15 PM   #78
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I don't think I would use the term iconic for a glock.
That's where you lost me.

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I recommend you leave it factory and shoot it a lot and get a feel of it.
I may add night sights at some point. Too bad the mag release can't be switched, though. I'd prefer it on the other side.

Are extra mags virtually nonexistant at this point? Aim Surplus emailed me yesterday evening about getting used mags back in stock at $14.95 each but I didn't read the email until today and they were already gone. I've had zero luck gettng anything from Aim Surplus for some reason.
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Old July 13, 2013, 08:32 PM   #79
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and you get a polygonal bore to deal with on top of that.
I actually like that feature. I don't reload and I don't shoot lead cast bullets. Even in pistols with conventional rifling I don't shoot lead bullets, too dirty for me.

Now we're just bickering amongst ourselves about one brand versus another. I think this thread has lived its purpose.
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Old July 13, 2013, 09:32 PM   #80
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How did the GP-100 get in there. Ruger should have stuck with the Security-Six trigger system, anyway.
Sorry, I inadvertently mixed up two names for the same pistol. The STI GP6 is the rebadged name of the Grand Power K100. It's a polymer-framed, rotating barrel autopistol.
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TunnelRat was correct...
Fair enough.
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And among DA/SA pistol trigger systems, the H&Ks hardly distinguish themselves and compared to SIG/Sauer pistols... polygonal bore to deal with on top of that. ... Beretta PX4s aren't exactly setting the world on fire either in terms of trigger quality or accuracy.
I can't see how my comments about the trigger quality of polymer pistols could be construed to be recommendations of H&K over SIG (never mentioned SIG at all) or as a blanket recommendation of the pistols I mentioned over all other handgun offerings on the market in terms of rifling style, accuracy, or even trigger quality. I tried to be, and think I was very clear that my list was intended to contain a few poly-pistols with triggers I think are better than the SR9 trigger. I never implied (nor do I, after re-reading my post see any suggestion in it that) the list was intended to be an over-arching recommendation of all of the features of the pistols I listed as being superior to the features of all other pistols on the market.

Besides, it's all really neither here nor there at this point now that you've clarified that you meant your initial statement to be more narrowly qualified so that it applies only to striker-fired poly pistols.
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As far as Kahr's, my shooting partner had a P9 where the forward thin steel rails embedded in the frame came apart from the frame at a fairly low round count, so you can have all the Kahr's you want. If I had to have one, it would have a steel frame.
That sounds like a mess, although it doesn't seem to be at all a common problem from what I can determine. As much of a mess as it may have been, it doesn't really have any bearing on their triggers which are, in my experience, better than the SR series Ruger triggers in specific, and better than most striker-fired poly pistols in general.
Quote:
Then there's the little matter of the Ruger being built stronger than any of them...
I'd be interested to see any information you have on the relative strength of striker-fired poly pistols. Do you have pressure specs for the Ruger SR series pistols?
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Old July 13, 2013, 11:00 PM   #81
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John, all you have to do is examine the internals of all the poly pistols. Most of them typically have small rails just over the trigger and at the rear of the frame. Ruger, like the XDm uses a removable steel chamber-block mid frame that incorporates longer rails than are typical in most poly pistols. Then there are polymer rails at the front of the frame that engage the front of the slide. You have the stainless steel chamber-block where the chamber is surrounded by steel with the longer rails it provides and rails at the rear that give 3 engagement points between the slide and frame rather than the typical 2 while at the same time the Rugers are the slimmest double-stacks period. A 17 round SR9 is thinner than a 1911.

As far as H&K, I bought a USP as soon as one became available in 1994. It's trigger was rather unimpressive and since it's weight advantage is minimal compared to an alloy frame SIG/Sauer, I think that's the better comparison where the S/S pretty much sets the standard for DA/SA autoloaders. I have not fired an FN FNP USG and now they've been replaced by the FNX version with a shorter barrel. I thought about buying the FNP USG which I could have done for around $600 compared to the HK45 costing over $900. I do handload and have for over 28 years so I don't want any pistol with a polygonal bore, period. And I won't buy a pistol because of an inflated rep. The H&Ks are very overpriced. On top of that, I like the safety system on my SR9 and SR45.

Kahr's are not really in the same category (service size) but I have shot them. I'll take Ruger's trigger system over any DAO any day of the week and there are too many reasons why I wouldn't own a Kahr anyway, especially compared to the S&W Shield or XDs.
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Old July 13, 2013, 11:12 PM   #82
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I do handload and have for over 28 years so I don't want any pistol with a polygonal bore, period.
Yes, but personal preference doesn't somehow make a feature "bad". You could have specified in the posting, "I don't like polygonal barrels because I reload."

Quote:
Ruger, like the XDm uses a removable steel chamber-block mid frame
So does S&W.

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incorporates longer rails than are typical in most poly pistols.
While I get that, what's funny is think about HKs. While I know you think they are overpriced, let's move past that for a moment though, they have tiny nubs for rails. Yet I've never heard of that being a problem. I honestly think length of slide rails really isn't that important. As long as the points of contact are strong, I don't see why long rails is an advantage. If anything it is a larger area where crud can build up and induce a malfunction, which is a heck of a lot more likely than a catastrophic failure of the rails. Some folks think rail length = accuracy. Honestly I think barrel to slide fit and quality of trigger are what enable good accuracy.

Quote:
Then there are polymer rails at the front of the frame that engage the front of the slide.
I'd be amazed if these actually accomplish something more than really serving as guides for the metal rails. Otherwise we'd have pistols with all polymer rails.


I like the SR series, I do. But all you've provided me is a series of observations. Unless you're willing to buy a number of each brand of pistol, say 30 or so, and fire them until they fail due to a catastrophic failure, and there will be mechanical parts breakages long before then, then these observations are hardly evidence of a "superior" design. Isn't there a Glock with over 100,000 rounds fired?


Can't we just enjoy our guns and stop trying to prove to others what makes them better than their guns? I don't get it, it's asinine. We're arguing about tiny differences really. Some firearms have features some people like whereas others exclude those options. I don't see how that makes one superior to another.
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Old July 13, 2013, 11:20 PM   #83
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Most of them typically have small rails just over the trigger and at the rear of the frame. Ruger, like the XDm uses a removable steel chamber-block mid frame that incorporates longer rails than are typical in most poly pistols. Then there are polymer rails at the front of the frame that engage the front of the slide. You have the stainless steel chamber-block where the chamber is surrounded by steel with the longer rails it provides and rails at the rear that give 3 engagement points between the slide and frame rather than the typical 2...
That's all interesting information, but the rail length of an autopistol does not provide a way to measure the relative strength of the design. Same thing goes for the number of engagement points between the slide and frame.

A pistol like that might last longer, or it might not. Glock, over the years, for example, has tried a variety of different rail lengths--finally settling on a length that is somewhat longer than their first rails but shorter than the longest ones they tried. In other words, their testing seems to have proven to them that longer is not automatically better when it comes to rail lengths.
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Old July 14, 2013, 12:15 AM   #84
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Talk Me Into A Glock 19

Joe Pike, yes. I should have said that again. I mentioned in an earlier post. All I add to my Glock's are Trijicon HD night sights.
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Old July 14, 2013, 12:17 AM   #85
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Yes, but personal preference doesn't somehow make a feature "bad". You could have specified in the posting, "I don't like polygonal barrels because I reload."
Well, I've never seen any benefit to polygonal bores other than they may be less expensive to produce. The claim that polygonal bores give higher velocity in comparable barrel lengths is a farce. Few pistols of equivalent barrel lengths will produce higher velocity than Ruger's stainless steel barrels.

Quote:
So does S&W.
Yeah, they do, but they don't have any rails that engage the front of the slide and Ruger has made several pistols where the frame rails were nothing but polymer so I think they've pretty well proved the merits of that.

Quote:
While I get that, what's funny is think about HKs. While I know you think they are overpriced, let's move past that for a moment though, they have tiny nubs for rails. Yet I've never heard of that being a problem. I honestly think length of slide rails really isn't that important. As long as the points of contact are strong, I don't see why long rails is an advantage. If anything it is a larger area where crud can build up and induce a malfunction, which is a heck of a lot more likely than a catastrophic failure of the rails. Some folks think rail length = accuracy. Honestly I think barrel to slide fit and quality of trigger are what enable good accuracy.
Which would you prefer in a catastrophic case failure, a chamber surrounded by steel, or one where the area underneath the chamber is nothing but polymer? As far as rails being susceptible to crud, it's never been a problem for SIG/Sauer that have the longest rails of any pistol make. Barrel to slide fit is very important and like I said, compare the Rugers to any of them.

All of this is just deflecting from the original debate where I said that the Ruger factory triggers after break-in are the best I've experienced in a striker-fired poly pistol and because there is a manual safety, I prefer this system to anything out there including DA/SA pistols. A Glock, M&P or XDm's trigger will have to be modified with aftermarket parts to even come close. The likelihood of chambering a quality defense round with a high seated primer is highly unlikely these days and any round loaded into a defense pistols magazine should be checked to ensure that all primers are seated well below the rim. In loading my own defense loads there's a good bit more quality control with each and every round I make. An experienced shooter that doesn't enjoy shooting cast lead SWCs, especially in .45 ACP is a rarity rather than the norm and with properly executed handloads where the cast bullet is .001" above groove diameter, clean-up is a breeze. And it cost nothing extra for the stainless steel slide and barrel. It's yankee ingenuity at its finest and I get a sense of pride in knowing my SR9 and SR45 are as good as anything out there today while being made in the USA.
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Old July 14, 2013, 09:11 AM   #86
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LOL...and again the sr9 trigger doesn't hold a candle to a stock PPQ trigger.
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Old July 14, 2013, 05:23 PM   #87
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LOL...and again the sr9 trigger doesn't hold a candle to a stock PPQ trigger
LOL, are you comparing them at the local gunshop? I think I've said at least 3 times now that I'm talking about the Ruger's after break-in and as far as structurally, the PPQ doesn't hold a candle to an SR9 and when it comes to Ka-BOOMs, Walther Poly-pistols are second only to Glocks in .40 S&W.

Getting back to the structural aspect, Ruger considers their polymer to be a stronger compound than their competitors and Ruger has made solid polymer frames including the rails where the others have NOT. The 3 points of contact may not mean anything to you guys, but I've owned handguns for over 35 years and I don't recall ever hearing the term "limp-wristing" until after Glocks became common. So with the lesser contact of small rails with only two points of contact, flexing of the polymer frame will be more condusive to reliability issues that are attributed to limp-wristing. I owned a P-345 at one time where its rails were entirely polymer and not a hint of any limp-wristing issue. If Ruger's polymer is indeed stronger and more rigid than the other's, contact between slide and frame at the front, mid and rear would further reduce the possibility of frame flexing.
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Old July 14, 2013, 05:32 PM   #88
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@57K.

I always find it interesting that whatever firearm you like the most suddenly becomes the best firearm since sliced bread. Before the SR it was the XDm, which back then you argued was better than all the rest. Now the SR is better than even that. I'm sorry but this type of behavior is really myopic. It's not even worth arguing with you, you are 100% convinced that you're right and honestly a bit rude with others in how quickly you dismiss any insight they have.

The OP already bought a Glock. This thread has turned into a bunch of boys in the sand box arguing about who has the best toy. Adios.
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Old July 14, 2013, 06:28 PM   #89
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The OP has made his decision, and a whole lot of what's been posted lately is just useless bickering.

Accordingly, closed.
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