The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old July 11, 2013, 08:48 AM   #26
Strafer Gott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,125
My point is that the 1911 was way past meaningful maintenance and had to be carried C3 for safety's sake. If you have never had a 1911 so worn out that it wouldn't stay locked, you don't have a complete experience set. I don't know anyone who even remotely suggests cocked but not locked is safe carry.
Sure you still have a grip safety, but all the weapon familiarity you could possibly acquire won't make it safe. So pontificate all you want. If the old man said carry that way, that's the way you carried. And that's the name of that tune. If you think that was dumb, we were still trained to shoot the M16 dry, that is sans lube. You wouldn't believe the arguments about that one!
Strafer Gott is offline  
Old July 11, 2013, 02:20 PM   #27
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,236
Quote:
If you have never had a 1911 so worn out that it wouldn't stay locked
That makes it a defective gun, and thus one NOT TO CARRY.

If it won't stay locked, FIX IT.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old July 11, 2013, 02:35 PM   #28
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 1,698
Quote:
That makes it a defective gun, and thus one NOT TO CARRY.

If it won't stay locked, FIX IT.
...or replace it with a Beretta like the military did....
__________________
Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......
seeker_two is offline  
Old July 11, 2013, 03:18 PM   #29
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
How do they carry their M9s in the military today? Round in chamber, hammer down ready for first shot dbl action?


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old July 12, 2013, 09:20 AM   #30
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: May 2, 1999
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 3,603
SGT L., depends on the unit, the mission and the place. We had one commander dictate carrying the M9 in Condition 3, even out and about.

__________________
http://www.scfirearms.org/
Al Thompson is offline  
Old July 12, 2013, 11:09 AM   #31
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
The military version Beretta, does the safety/de-cocker function as only a decocker (momentary) or can it stay in the down/safety/unable to fire position?

I know the 92s came with both variants.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old July 12, 2013, 06:15 PM   #32
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,236
Quote:
The military version Beretta, does the safety/de-cocker function as only a decocker (momentary) or can it stay in the down/safety/unable to fire position?
Does not matter. It has a firing pin lock.

Hammer down is 100 percent safe with the M9.

1911's, of GI standard, don't have a firing pin lock and can be fired if dropped on the muzzle.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old July 12, 2013, 06:51 PM   #33
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
I'm not asking if it matters.

Does the military Baretta come with a decocker only or a decocker/safety?


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old July 12, 2013, 10:15 PM   #34
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,236
I believe the slide mounted decocker does stay down and has to be manually raised for firing.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old July 12, 2013, 10:39 PM   #35
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
OK. Every cop I know that carries a 92 hates the safety version of that lever. The decocker version decocks but then spring load returns to the ready to fire dbl action position. It's in a really odd spot and pivots from the rear compared to a 1911 which pivots from the front. Not very ergonomic.

I just didn't know if the military version had that same goofy thing or if they used the decocker only version.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 06:59 AM   #36
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: May 2, 1999
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 3,603
Quote:
Does the military Baretta come with a decocker only or a decocker/safety?
Safety. You have to manually manipulate the lever either down (Safe) or up (Fire).
__________________
http://www.scfirearms.org/
Al Thompson is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 09:55 AM   #37
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
Thank you, Al T


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 01:49 PM   #38
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,236
The trick with using the Beretta (actually S&W and Walther used the same method) safety is to flick it off when bringing your hand down to draw the weapon. Don't flick it off after drawing it was it's awkward.

But while the hand comes down on the grip, flick the safety off with your thumb. Then grasp the gun and draw it.

Works quite well.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 01:57 PM   #39
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
Or simply carry it in dbl action ready to fire condition, decocker NOT locked down. I guess it's the 92G model that has the momentary decocker lever.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old July 13, 2013, 10:56 PM   #40
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Ayoob; US armed forces....

Gun writer & tactics instructor; Massad Ayoob wrote in a recent(2011/2012) article that US Army troops carry the M9 9mmNATO, safety on empty chamber with a 15rd M9 magazine.
He said the USAF Security Forces(what were SPs) do the same on most bases; empty chamber safety on loaded pistol magazine.
They may have "cruiser" ready Mossberg or 870 pump 12ga shotguns or M4 5.56mm rifles(loaded magazines; 30-40rds)

Note; in CONUS, the MPs(and I think the SFs or Navy SPs/shore patrol) no longer conduct LE operations(Law & Order). This new DA(Dept of the Army) memorandum came out in 2012.
General security & LE details are done by 083 police officers(federal employees) or private contract security(PSCs).
They are armed & trained but can not enforce the UCMJ(Uniform Code of Military Justice).
Overseas(USFK, Japan, Italy, Europe, Africa, etc) MPs & SFs still have LE powers.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old July 14, 2013, 01:19 AM   #41
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
Did Mas say why?

Empty chamber AND safety engaged? That sounds really weird.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old July 14, 2013, 01:39 AM   #42
Model12Win
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 453
Yeah Air Force cops carry like that, at least with an empty chamber.
Model12Win is online now  
Old July 14, 2013, 07:52 AM   #43
pmeisel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2008
Location: WV
Posts: 271
Most USAF Security Forces duty does not put them in a situation where they expect to be surprised -- they have time to react.

In combat or imminent threat situations, they will usually have another weapon that they are using.
__________________
Paul
pmeisel is offline  
Old July 14, 2013, 09:40 AM   #44
pete2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 799
The only thing I'd carry with an empty chamber is the Colt Model P.
pete2 is offline  
Old July 14, 2013, 01:25 PM   #45
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,236
Sgt,

I have no doubt bureaucrats, who have never been in combat, made the regulations on chamber empty and safety engaged. That was to protect them, not the GI.

Long time ago a friend of mine who was a MP (along with his wife) in Louisiana. He came back to recruit at the high schools. He was scheduled to speak at one of them and he asked me for a 1911 magazine to put in his gun.

Yes they issued him a gun and holster but NOT ANY MAGAZINES. SOP was, when off the base doing what he was doing, to have no magazines. Of course that looked pretty stupid in front of a bunch of Texas high schoolers who knew enough to see the gun was empty.

So I let him borrow a Colt blued 1911 mag so his 1911A1 looked like it should.

The bureaucrats just decided that was safer (not chamber empty, not all magazines empty, but NO MAGAZINE!)

So I have no doubt in the AF they say chamber empty and safety on. The GI at the gate is merely a trip wire to the higher ups and once alerted the real security will come forth.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old July 14, 2013, 01:33 PM   #46
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
Quote:
I have no doubt bureaucrats, who have never been in combat, made the regulations on chamber empty and safety engaged. That was to protect them, not the GI.
I'm sure you're absolutely right. Seems odd, though, that Massad Ayoob would have that opinion.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old July 14, 2013, 04:05 PM   #47
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,236
Mas says to carry chamber empty with safety on?

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old July 14, 2013, 06:52 PM   #48
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
I probably misread, my sorry. I thought Mas was recommending carrying an M9 as empty chamber, safety on. I re-read clyde's post. I guess Mas wasn't recommending (hope he wasn't recommending!) that. I can't imagine that he would.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old July 14, 2013, 07:08 PM   #49
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,236
Well I can assure you Mas would not say that. I've had his LFI-1 class and read virtually everything he as written. C1 is defiantly the way he thinks.

But the AF is the AF so I can see some carrier minded general who would not want an AD?ND to tarnish his reputation to order all guns carried to be inoperable. Even in Afghanistan lots of brass insist all guns be unloaded inside the green line.

John Farnam has written alot about this problem and has convinced alot of Marine officers to allow them to carry their weapons fully loaded. But that is just the Marines and certain members of the brass.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old July 17, 2013, 05:07 PM   #50
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,788
I carry a DAO, so there is no reason for a manual safety or to NOT carry with a round chambered. For defense, I'm a firm believer in DA/SA or DAO for that reason.
Skans is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11756 seconds with 7 queries