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Old July 5, 2013, 10:01 PM   #51
SgtLumpy
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I doint know about most people but I am not on the ball when woken in the middle of the night. So maybe the few seconds to load the firearm would give me time to make sure it was a real threat and not some family member going to the toilet.
You think you're prone to shoot a family member because you fail to get good target identification?

You think keeping a 1911 unloaded is a cure for that?


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Old July 5, 2013, 10:59 PM   #52
leprechaun50
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My 1911 is just fine under my pillow every night, just the way it is carried every day. Cocked and locked.
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Old July 6, 2013, 03:39 AM   #53
Bartholomew Roberts
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A 1911 is no less safe than a double action pistol. You must still disengage both the manual safety and grip safety prior to firing - and of course, knowing your target and what is beyond it is always important. In my case, I'd also have to unholster the pistol. If I am in such a state I can't identify my target but I can still do all of the above automatically, I fail to see how having a round unchambered will be helpful.
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Old July 6, 2013, 06:53 AM   #54
manta49
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Quote:
You think you're prone to shoot a family member because you fail to get good target identification?

You think keeping a 1911 unloaded is a cure for that?
You would wonder how it happens so often with all these experts getting good target indication. Maybe people are not all as expert as you.
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Old July 6, 2013, 08:43 AM   #55
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This is why I keep a DA revolver handy for home defense! AKA KISS.
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Old July 6, 2013, 10:23 AM   #56
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I live by myself and HD/SD firearms are loaded. A flick of the safety and a pull of the trigger is all that stands between an intruder and his maker.
Revolver and 870.

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Old July 6, 2013, 10:50 AM   #57
Jim243
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Howdy Wyatt,

Hope this letter reaches you before the snow blocks the passes. It’s been quite here since I moved down the road from the Army post. No red skins been around for quite a while now, and old yellow has been sleeping much better since he ran off a couple of coyote a month or two ago. The old scatter gun is still by the door, but as dry as the crops in the middle of August, I don’t want the young-gins to put a hole in the roof, but I do have a box of shells close by. Last week while riding the fence line I had to use Mr. Colt’s new fangled 45 on a rattler and it was a good thing that all chambers were loaded, you know how bad a shot I am.

Well when I get back to Dodge for a stop at the Lucky Lady for a hand or two, I’ll stop by to drop off the irons at the Marshall’s office and give you a howdy.

Yesterday, the pony express rider stopped by with the new “Wanted” fliers and a letter from the big city mayor of New York City. Can you believe he wants no shooting irons of any kind, you’d think with all the varmints there he’d want more of them not none.

Got to go now, a Mr. Browning is stopping by with some sort on new fangled 45 he wants me to try out, he says you can keep it cocked and locked whatever that means, sounds a bit dangerous to me.

Well hope you and the misses are doing well, keep your powder dry and iron’s hot.

Jim
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Old July 6, 2013, 11:26 AM   #58
SgtLumpy
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Quote:
Quote:
You think you're prone to shoot a family member because you fail to get good target identification?

You think keeping a 1911 unloaded is a cure for that?
Quote:
You would wonder how it happens so often with all these experts getting good target indication. Maybe people are not all as expert as you.
Not shooting at a target you're not sure of isn't a "level of expertise". It's something you learn in the first eleven seconds of training.

I'm not familiar with those cases that "happen so often". Are you suggesting that accidental shootings could be reduced/eliminated if we'd all ignore the "Know your target" rule and instead, keep 1911s empty chambered?

With all due respect, sir, I'm honestly failing to see the logic here.


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Old July 6, 2013, 08:06 PM   #59
Kevin Rohrer
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Unloaded guns do no one any good. Get some 1911-specific training and store it as it is meant to be carried.
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Old July 6, 2013, 08:43 PM   #60
tomrkba
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A half loaded gun is useless. You may not have the time to operate the slide.

Take a two day defensive handgun course and learn how to run it.
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Old July 6, 2013, 08:59 PM   #61
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Get an alarm to give you lots more time to prepare. Place large sign in obvious place front/back of house and small stick on decals on doors and windows so the dirt bags go to other places.
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Old July 6, 2013, 11:54 PM   #62
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With a 1911, I'd say avoid it in general. The only time I want to be "cocked and locked" is on the belt in a situation where I feel like I'm more likely to need it. For casual carry, riding a desk, or even reasonably quick access from a safe or locker; I feel more comfortable without all that potential energy in line with a round or what is essentially a protruding lever attached to important moving parts. For these purposes, I prefer a full magazine and an empty chamber.

I know you can manually ease down the hammer and go from needing to rack to needing to thumb-cock, but I don't care for that either. Honestly, why bother when other options exist?

The 1911 is time-tested and true to shoot but you can get semi-automatic .45-caliber action in other packages. My favorite is the FNX. It allows the first shot to be taken double-action. If you need that hammer dropped, it has a very safe decocking lever. If you love the cock-and-lock, it lets you do that too. Did I mention that it holds one more round than the high-capacity double-stack 1911s?

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Old July 7, 2013, 12:37 AM   #63
raimius
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I think we can all agree that you shouldn't try to kill someone if you can't tell if they are a bad guy! Therefore, you should ALWAYS positively ID a target before opening fire.
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Old July 7, 2013, 05:38 AM   #64
manta49
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Quote:
A half loaded gun is useless. You may not have the time to operate the slide.
You make a statement saying that a half loaded gun is useless. You then go on to say you might not have time to operate the slide. One contradicts the other. If you may not have time to operate the slide then you also may have time to operate the slide. So the statement that a half loaded gun is useless is not logical. A simple question if you had to go up against an armed individual what would you rather have a handgun that took a second to put a round in the chamber and use or a stick. Would people explain the pros and cons and stop coming up with these stick paper weight brick and all the other nonsensical examples.

Last edited by manta49; July 7, 2013 at 06:55 AM.
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Old July 7, 2013, 09:42 AM   #65
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Quote:
Would people explain the pros and cons...
I think that's been done several times. Now we're discussing. You know, like what you do on a discussion group.

Here's my pros and cons -

PRO -
- The gun is ready to use

CON -
- Doesn't allow you to make that cool "Rack-ack" sound like in the movies

I've heard some pretty ridiculous reasons for wanting to keep it unloaded in this discussion. I think the most ridiculous of which goes something like "If I keep it ready to fire, I might shoot a family member because when awoken at night, I don't get a good sight picture, I fire at anything that moves"

Exactly what "Safe Gun Handling" course does that kind of thinking come from?

Bottom line, over and over again, you should carry how you want to carry. Some will carry with it ready to fire. Some will carry with an extra, unsafe step required. And if that's what those people need to feel safe, that's what they should do. I hope I'm not around them when they start racking that 1911 slide with the safety off.

I hope that doesn't violate your "paperweight rule".


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Old July 7, 2013, 09:51 AM   #66
jackpine
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a 1911 that isn't "cocked and locked" is mostly an expensive steel rock. If you don't like the idea of loaded chamber/hammer cocked/safety on then you need to practice with your weapon more or maybe trade for a new one
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Old July 7, 2013, 11:07 AM   #67
manta49
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I might shoot a family member because when awoken at night,
Where did someone say they might shoot a family member when awoken at night. I think they said that it happens it was not meant to be top of the list of reasons not to have a round in the chamber.

Quote:
A retired Chicago police officer has shot and killed his son, after mistaking him for a burglar.

Michael Griffin, 48, died of a gunshot wound to the head at his father's home in the northwest side of Chicago
I would assume that the officer had some training after 40 years in homicide. PS I did not say it should be carried one way or another just that either way is a option.
Quote:
PRO -
- The gun is ready to use

CON -
- Doesn't allow you to make that cool "Rack-ack" sound like in the movies
I would say accidently shooting yourself or someone else as more of a con. A quick search on the net or YouTube you will see plenty of examples of people that thought they were trained managing to shoot themselves. One thing in common with them all they were not operating a slide they had a round in the chamber. I can see the thinking for carrying that way patrolling Afghanistan etc. But as the odds of having to use a firearm are miniscule in the first place not carrying in con one as they call it here will make any difference. The closest I ever came to getting shot was when someone carrying with a round in the chamber fired it in the house the bullet grazing my leg. He thought that he was well trained.

Quote:
And if that's what those people need to feel safe, that's what they should do. I hope I'm not around them when they start racking that 1911 slide with the safety off
I can show examples of unintended discharges by people carrying with a round in the chamber. You show me examples of unintended discharges by people operating the slide.

Last edited by manta49; July 7, 2013 at 11:36 AM.
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Old July 7, 2013, 11:47 AM   #68
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Manta you are impossible to reason with. You keep going along your way of thinking, and just about every firearm instructor on the planet, minus ones in Israel, will go along with the there way, the correct way. Firearms were made to be carried with a round chambered and safely at that. If you don't feel comfortable doing so, that is a lack of proper training.

Last edited by Dragline45; July 7, 2013 at 11:55 AM.
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:22 PM   #69
orionengnr
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I have heard it said that a gun is like a parachute. You will probably never need one, but if you do, your life will depend on it.

Keeping it in a lock box/safe slows down your response time. Do you want to slow it further by accessing an unloaded gun?

For the record, I am not knocking the safe, just stating a fact. For my money, if it is in a safe, it is safe. I don't need to unload it to make it "more safe".
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:46 PM   #70
manta49
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Quote:
If you don't feel comfortable doing so, that is a lack of proper training
I didn't say I did not feel comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber. Also I did not say people should not carry that way I said people should carry what ever way they want.

Quote:
ones in Israel, will go along with the there way
Yeah what would they know. If I wanted to carry without a round in the chamber the fact that the Israelis are happy to carry that way is good enough for me. PS Why do you think the Israelis adopted this method of carrying. ? Why do you think most militaries carry without a round in the chamber unless in combat. Its very simple there are more negligent discharges when carrying with a round in the chamber, this applies to civilians as well.

Last edited by manta49; July 7, 2013 at 01:16 PM.
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:49 PM   #71
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49
I would say accidently shooting yourself or someone else as more of a con. A quick search on the net or YouTube you will see plenty of examples of people that thought they were trained managing to shoot themselves. One thing in common with them all they were not operating a slide they had a round in the chamber.
You know, lots of people who passed driver safety and were trained in driving get in accidents. One thing in common with all of them was they all had fuel in the gas tank when it happened. I bet if we stopped people from fueling up their vehicles until right before they needed to actually use it, it would be about as effective as your suggestion in reducing accidents.
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:07 PM   #72
Chris9472
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I don't own a 1911 type pistol (yet), but I wouldn't dream of keeping or carrying a semi for SD without one in the chamber. The reasons are not that hard to fathom if one spends any time seriously thinking about it.

I prefer DAO or SA/DA pistols and revolvers with long enough trigger pulls that I know are unlikely to go off without a conscious effort on my part. That is all the safety I need, besides what is between my ears.
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:29 PM   #73
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I didn't say I did not feel comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber. Also I did not say people should not carry that way I said people should carry what ever way they want.
Then why are you defending it so adamantly?
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Old July 7, 2013, 02:00 PM   #74
SgtLumpy
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Quote:
Where did someone say they might shoot a family member when awoken at night.

Quote:
I am not on the ball when woken in the middle of the night. So maybe the few seconds to load the firearm would give me time to make sure it was a real threat and not some family member going to the toilet.

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Old July 7, 2013, 02:06 PM   #75
manta49
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Then why are you defending it so adamantly?
I think there are pros and cons to both ways of carrying. What irritates me is when people post that its their way or no way, and go on to say that if someone is happy carrying without a round in the chamber that they are not properly trained etc. People can carry whatever way they want they are the ones that have to face the consciences of their decision good or bad. There is giving advice and their is being arrogant thinking that you know everything. Its not very complicated if you carry with a round in the chamber you are more likely to have a niglaint discharge if you don't have a round in the chamber it can't happen. knowing that then make your decision.

Quote:
Quote:
Where did someone say they might shoot a family member when awoken at night.



Quote:
I am not on the ball when woken in the middle of the night. So maybe the few seconds to load the firearm would give me time to make sure it was a real threat and not some family member going to the toilet.
I replied to that in post 68.

Last edited by manta49; July 7, 2013 at 02:14 PM.
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