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Old July 5, 2013, 10:27 AM   #26
JD0x0
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It the owner's preference. Personally I think people should leave their guns unchambered unless they know they are about to use their gun. It's just safer.

Sure, sure. "It takes longer having to rack the slide" but sometimes that's all you need to get rid of a threat. The sound of a gun cocking can be enough to stop certain threats. In case it doesn't, you then have a bullet, in the chamber, ready to use, if you need to.
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Old July 5, 2013, 11:19 AM   #27
ClydeFrog
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My input....

As posted, many TFLers have various valid points about how to store or secure a home defense sidearm. In general, Id have a fully loaded magazine with a empty chamber(safety ON if that is the design).
Some semi-auto pistols like the Ruger SR45 or standard Hi-Power 9x19mm have a magazine safety; which increases the safety/security. The pistol can't fire if the magazine isn't loaded into the firearm.
My new pistol; a M&P .45acp Compact comes w/o the magazine safety feature.
I store it in a gun case with a loaded(5 round) magazine. I plan to buy a S&W factory 10rd PVD treated .45acp magazine then use that(fully loaded).
My current home defense load is the potent MagSafe SWAT .45acp which comes in 10rd boxes. I may buy some top rated Hornady Critical Duty 220gr +P .45acp later too.
Some firearm instructors & tactics trainers advise gun owners to leave a round or two off to reduce the tension on the pistol magazine spring. This, to me, isn't bad advice, but most modern firearms & metal components are engineered to last for long periods.
Either way, Id advise any gun owner to check/inspect a home defense weapon often for any problems or damage. A quick check may prevent a lot of issues later, .

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Old July 5, 2013, 12:19 PM   #28
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My carry gun for the day and my bedside gun both stay loaded at all times. An unloaded gun is an expensive paperweight.

Quote:
The sound of a gun cocking can be enough to stop certain threats.
The time it takes for you to rack that slide is enough for someone to get the jump on you and end your life.
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Old July 5, 2013, 01:06 PM   #29
silvrjeepr
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Should you keep a round in the chamber in a house gun?

I can understand the reasoning why many store their HD gun in condition one, but I don't. My glock nearly never has a round in the pipe carry or otherwise unless I'm about to pull the trigger. Because of this, racking the slide has become second nature to me and a natural part of my draw. Also, it takes nearly zero extra time (for me because i practice this way) since I'm on or close to target by the time the slide returns. Heck, if I were to carry in condition one now, I'd probably eject the first shell on the draw. Either way, practice it the same way you store it and call it a day...
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Old July 5, 2013, 01:53 PM   #30
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I would definitely have one in the chamber. I think a lot of it comes down to how you've trained yourself to use your gun. In my hometown there have been a lot of break-ins recently, and the homeowners had to defend themselves with their guns. It really makes a person think when that experience will come calling at your door.
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Old July 5, 2013, 02:14 PM   #31
Ludwig Von Mises
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Both of my pistols (P95 and CZ75b) have firing pin blocks, as well as relatively heavy double action first pulls.

I live with a couple other people of my age and mental capacity, and my part of the dwelling is always locked tight, and since my roommates know the drill on not doing things like kicking in doors or climbing through windows, I keep one in the chamber of everything except the AK, as I have never trusted those safeties. The P95 has one in the tube, hammer down, safety off (as well as that nifty ruger trigger-pressure activated firing pin disconnect) and the CZ has one in the tube, hammer half, safety off.

I figure if I ever run out on both of those and have to use the VEPR, well, hopefully the ridiculously loud slam of the bolt will encourage the seemingly bulletproof burglar to go back to the halfway house. Better than a 308 spontaneously going off in my ear while I sleep, due to earthquake, or some other act of god.

I suppose thats why I've always been uncomfortable with traditional 1911's, besides the mag capacity, the idea of carrying cocked and locked with no double action litmus test so to speak, is a recipe for disaster. To wake up in the night and pull the 14lb P95 double action takes full awareness and stock in the situation, while I'd probably end up throwing hot lead at a stray cat in my trash cans if it were simply a matter of a 3 or 4lb single action hair trigger pull. Thats the only reason i keep one in the chamber, because it is double action. Carrying, however, is different. Ask your local sheriff if he has one in the chamber, he will surely cackle.

Now, that being said, in many places where tensions are high, but lethal defense is beyond last resort, a chambered round is one of the parts in a confrontation. A border guard I knew in Israel always carried with an empty tube, as the his simple act of producing a gun (he was particular to the standard issue 92's) and racking the slide usually ended the confrontation almost immediately. Also, he said, he didn't want to shoot himself in the ass, which is where most IDF carry their pistols, if they are officers or guards of some sort that is.

But for one's bedside table? Especially someone with kids/dogs or one of you old timers that takes Ambien to sleep? Please, don't. Or at least get a DA gun. Theres a reason many cops swear by them, even staple gun DAO's.

Last edited by Ludwig Von Mises; July 5, 2013 at 02:19 PM.
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Old July 5, 2013, 02:15 PM   #32
pete2
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It won't shoot if it isn't loaded.
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Old July 5, 2013, 02:24 PM   #33
Ludwig Von Mises
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Quote:
Some firearm instructors & tactics trainers advise gun owners to leave a round or two off to reduce the tension on the pistol magazine spring. This, to me, isn't bad advice, but most modern firearms & metal components are engineered to last for long periods.
By the nature of spring mechanics, springs are only worn out from repeated tensioning and loss of that tension, not from just the application of tension over a period of time. Same argument comes up whenever people balk about leaving guns with the slide locked back.

The idea that leaving mags loaded or guns locked back has any effect on the spring is akin to believing that leaving a car on the ground for an extended period of time without moving will eventually wear out the coil/leaf springs. If this were true, we would all need a lift in our driveways for when we went to sleep.

Surprising how much installing rich kids coilovers can teach you about unrelated things.

I got a Ruger P95 in October, bought 6 extra mags the same day, have had all six of them loaded since the day I got them (MECGAR mags) and I just checked one, spring is near as stiff as the day I got it. The two that have softened are the two mags that came with the gun, which have seen probably 1200 rounds each.

However, if you are talking about the tension that interferes with feeding, this is typical of mags that have not been completely broken in. A properly broken in mag (the two that feel the softest of my 8) feeds much more reliably than a stiff, new one, regardless of whether one of them is full or not.
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It won't shoot if it isn't loaded.
All I will say to that - famous last words. Saw a buddy lose a piece of his kitchen floor, and a washing machine in the basement off of that idea. Nothing crazy, but an M4 blast in a tiny kitchen and a visit to the audiologist later, "not loaded" doesn't exist to me.

Last edited by Ludwig Von Mises; July 5, 2013 at 02:31 PM.
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Old July 5, 2013, 02:36 PM   #34
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My carry gun for the day and my bedside gun both stay loaded at all times. An unloaded gun is an expensive paperweight.
Could someone please come up with another saying to describe an unloaded firearm. A unloaded firearm is not a paperweight or a brick or all the other the things people describe them as. A unloaded firearm or more correctly described as a loaded firearm without a round in the chamber. Is a firearm that will take a few seconds to put a round in the chamber and use if people are happy with that that's their decision.

Quote:
It won't shoot if it isn't loaded.
That's why you make sure their is a bullet in it before you want to use it.
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Old July 5, 2013, 02:45 PM   #35
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If I was going to use a 1911 I would certainly keep it in condition one. For the sole reason of 8 rounds being better then 7.

Now for my cz i'm not to worried about that 16th round because if the first 15didn't do it I'm in a serious predicament.
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Old July 5, 2013, 02:58 PM   #36
JD0x0
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Quote:
The time it takes for you to rack that slide is enough for someone to get the jump on you and end your life.
Really? Then with a chambered gun, the time it takes to raise the sights will also be too slow. Or the BG would be close enough to turn your loaded AND chambered pistol on you And you'll be dead. If the BG is close enough that you don't have enough time to rack your slide, you're probably screwed anyway.

If you keep your doors locked and hear someone breaking in you'll have more than enough time to rack a slide. If you don't have time then the BG is too close and you'd probably be better suited with a knife anyway. We're talking about a fraction of a second here, and I know in panic situations that counts, but really, if you're cutting it that close where you can't chamber a round before the BG reaches you, then other parts of your home security are flawed and a gun wont be of much help.

What you are suggesting is that someone should leave a loaded chambered pistol, with the safety off, within reach of their bed, to be safe from a BG. Any other configuration would "take too long" as you stated before, you wouldn't have enough time to rack the slide. And with a time space so narrow, the BG would probably be within arms reach of your loaded gun, if you didn't hear him break in and don't have time to rack the slide.
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Old July 5, 2013, 03:02 PM   #37
SgtLumpy
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It's either loaded and chambered, ready for me to pull the trigger, or it's unloaded and being cleaned. Any condition inbetween begs the question "why?". Is it "safer" not having a round chambered? No. It still won't fire unless you pull the trigger at the very least. In most autos you also have to de-activate one or more safeties.

I don't know what anyone would plan on doing with it that's unsafe with the round chambered that would be any more safe without a round in the pipe.

Maybe you just like racking the slide like in the movies.


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Old July 5, 2013, 03:17 PM   #38
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I'm for Condition 1 unless you have kids or immature adults in the house.



+1
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Old July 5, 2013, 03:46 PM   #39
SteveBonning
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Simulate a situation by setting your alarm to 3am. Set it to the loudest you can. Next put the 1911 unloaded onto the nightstand. I must emphasize safety and insist you check it twice to make sure its unloaded. Next wake up to the alarm and see how you handle it. Some folks may be able to make it work at 3am while others may fumble. This is why I say revolver.

This is a smart way to help decide whether or not to have a round in the chamber. It's all a matter of training and personal preference; Training first.
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Old July 5, 2013, 04:04 PM   #40
manta49
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Quote:
It's either loaded and chambered, ready for me to pull the trigger, or it's unloaded and being cleaned. Any condition inbetween begs the question "why?". Is it "safer" not having a round chambered? No. It still won't fire unless you pull the trigger at the very least. In most autos you also have to de-activate one or more safeties.
Family members have being shot people mistaking them for intruders. I doint know about most people but I am not on the ball when woken in the middle of the night. So maybe the few seconds to load the firearm would give me time to make sure it was a real threat and not some family member going to the toilet. As others have said if a intruder can get that close to you in your house quick enough that you have not time to load a firearm then its not the firearm that's the problem its your house security that needs looked at.

Last edited by manta49; July 5, 2013 at 04:23 PM.
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Old July 5, 2013, 04:24 PM   #41
Dragline45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragline45
The time it takes for you to rack that slide is enough for someone to get the jump on you and end your life.
And your response
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD0x0
Really? Then with a chambered gun, the time it takes to raise the sights will also be too slow. Or the BG would be close enough to turn your loaded AND chambered pistol on you And you'll be dead. If the BG is close enough that you don't have enough time to rack your slide, you're probably screwed anyway.
Plenty of people have successfully defended themselves with a firearm in what I call "bad breath distance". If that gun did not have a round chambered it would have done them absolutely no good.


Here is a previous comment of yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD0x0
Personally I think people should leave their guns unchambered unless they know they are about to use their gun. It's just safer

Sure, sure. "It takes longer having to rack the slide" but sometimes that's all you need to get rid of a threat. The sound of a gun cocking can be enough to stop certain threats. In case it doesn't, you then have a bullet, in the chamber, ready to use, if you need to. .
Sorry but this to me screams ignorance and lack of proper training. No one knows when they will need to use a gun, if that was the case they wouldn't have been there in the first place. What you consider "safer" is indeed not. Just about every firearm trainer out there will contradict and disagree with you. If you do not feel safe carrying or handling a loaded firearm, perhaps firearm ownership is not in your best interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD0x0
What you are suggesting is that someone should leave a loaded chambered pistol, with the safety off, within reach of their bed, to be safe from a BG. Any other configuration would "take too long" as you stated before, you wouldn't have enough time to rack the slide. And with a time space so narrow, the BG would probably be within arms reach of your loaded gun, if you didn't hear him break in and don't have time to rack the slide.
I never mentioned safety on or off, but I absolutely suggest to leave a loaded pistol within reach of the bed. And not every situation is played out and written in stone. Sure there will be some instances where you will have plenty of time to grab your firearm and chamber a round, but there are plenty of cases where you may not. So it's good practice to leave any gun designated for home defense or carry with a round chambered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49
Could someone please come up with another saying to describe an unloaded firearm. A unloaded firearm is not a paperweight or a brick or all the other the things people describe them as.
If it really bothers you that much feel free to come up with another saying. You are vastly over thinking it and missing the point. When someone says an unloaded gun is an expensive paperweight, what they mean is if you go to use a gun when you need it and it is not loaded then it's no more useful than a paperweight.

Last edited by Dragline45; July 5, 2013 at 04:31 PM.
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Old July 5, 2013, 04:45 PM   #42
manta49
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When someone says an unloaded gun is an expensive paperweight, what they mean is if you go to use a gun when you need it and it is not loaded then it's no more useful than a paperweight.
Yes it is chamber a round and shoot. Its only no use a paperweight etc if you have no ammo. If a loaded firearm is no use why do the military for example carry unloaded when on base why not just lock it up in the armoury. I will answer for you its because they can load it and use it if necessary. It might take a second to load it but that doesn't make it useless.

Last edited by manta49; July 5, 2013 at 04:52 PM.
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Old July 5, 2013, 05:01 PM   #43
Dragline45
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Quote:
Yes it is chamber a round and shoot. Its only no use a paperweight etc if you have no ammo. If a loaded firearm is no use why do the military for example carry unloaded when on base why not just lock it up in the armoury. I will answer for you its because they can load it and use it if necessary. It might take a second to load it but that doesn't make it useless.
You assume in every situation that you need a gun that you will indeed have enough time to rack the slide. Not true at all. I am assuming you do not carry concealed. Here is a scenario, you are walking down the street. On the same sidewalk a man is walking in your direction, just as the distance closes and you two are close to each other he attacks you. Tell me where in that situation you would have time to pull out your gun and rack the slide. You certainly cant pull out your gun and chamber a round every time you see someone waking in your direction in public. In that situation, your gun is indeed useless besides being used as a club, or a "heavy expensive paperweight". You say it only takes a second to load, but it also takes two hands to load. Not something you can do while being attacked. Guns were meant to be carried loaded, and safely at that.
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Old July 5, 2013, 05:06 PM   #44
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Well, there are some considerations that I looked at.

1. Would anyone else have potential access to the firearm? If your spouse/kid/significant other can access it, you might not want to keep a loaded gun in there. (If EVERYONE who has access knows it is kept loaded, and WILL treat it properly, it's less of an issue.)
2. Do you handle the firearm on a regular basis? Loading, unloading, and cleaning are when most negligent discharges seem to occur. Even if you are normally careful, the more you handle a firearm, the greater the chance you will eventually screw up (which can be very bad when there isn't a safe backstop designed for absorbing bullets).
3. How much response time do you need? If you'll have ample warning to any intruders, etc, you will likely have time to rack the slide. If a short distance and only 1-2 barriers are between you and a threat, you might not want to HAVE to use both hands to get the weapon ready (or remember to do so).
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Old July 5, 2013, 05:09 PM   #45
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Quote:
If a loaded firearm is no use why do the military for example carry unloaded when on base why not just lock it up in the armoury. I will answer for you its because they can load it and use it if necessary. It might take a second to load it but that doesn't make it useless.
That's because the commander thinks it's more likely that some junior enlisted type is going to negligently discharge a loaded weapon than actually have to use it. It's called CYA, and it runs a large portion of military rules.
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Old July 5, 2013, 05:24 PM   #46
manta49
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where in that situation you would have time to pull out your gun and rack the slide. You certainly cant pull out your gun and chamber a round every time you see someone waking in your direction in public. In that situation, your gun is indeed useless besides being used as a club, or a "heavy expensive paperweight". You say it only takes a second to load, but it also takes two hands to load. Not something you can do while being attacked. Guns were meant to be carried loaded, and safely at that
That's one posabilty but the post was about a firearm at your bedside at night. To me if your security is up to the job you would have plenty of time.

Quote:
That's because the commander thinks it's more likely that some junior enlisted type is going to negligently discharge a loaded weapon than actually have to use it. It's called CYA, and it runs a large portion of military rules.
Yes I know why they do it but the fact is that they still carry the firearm so its not useless it just needs a second to load. If it was useless because it was unloaded they wouldent carry it. But as I said its up to the individual to decide.

Quote:
That's because the commander thinks it's more likely that some junior enlisted type is going to negligently discharge a loaded weapon than actually have to use it
That could go for civilians as well.
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Old July 5, 2013, 05:38 PM   #47
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True story.

As a teenager (many, many years ago) my house gun was my Smith and Wesson model 19. I was nervous about keeping it loaded, so it was empty on the nightstand with several speedloaders next to it.
One night, I woke up out of a sound sleep to the alarming noises of a dog fight outside. I was still half asleep and grabbed the revolver, but no speed loader and rushed outside to find my lab/chow cross getting pinned by the neighbors pitbull*. If not for the fact that my other dog broke out the door behind me and defended her "brother", Southwest would have died that night.

Ever since I've keep whatever is on the night stand ready to go. The only one I have to do anything to be ready to shoot is the 1911 which I kept with one in the chamber, hammer down, which apparently is frowned upon these days.


*the neighbors pitbull was actually the reason I had unsupervised access to loaded guns. The dog attacked pretty much every other dog in the area and went after people (including another neighbors 6 year old) Everyone was armed to the teeth. To be honest, I'm suprised the dog survived until those jerks moved out.
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Old July 5, 2013, 06:33 PM   #48
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If it really concerns you with saftey but you want the round in the chamber perhaps you can look at other options for home defense..i personally keep my ruger p95 cocked and locked with one in the chamber..my gun is da/sa so i have the extra saftey feature of having a heavy trigger pull and can also keep my saftey on it takes me a split second to flip the saftey up and pull the trigger and i feel just as safe with it like that as i would without a round chambered..so perhaps looking for a gun with added saftey features would make u feel better..but as stated earlier a 1911 while it may look intimidating to handle is actually much safer than it is given credit for..
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Old July 5, 2013, 07:46 PM   #49
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It is your choice, but ...

I own 1911's because I wanted a sem-auto pistol that could be safely carried or left on the bedside table "cocked and locked" the way John Moses Browning designed it and because I don't like long double action trigger pulls in a semi-automatic!

Since the OP indicated he wants to keep his pistol in a safe, his 1911 has 3 safeties which have to be negotiated before the pistol is fired by anyone.
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Old July 5, 2013, 08:29 PM   #50
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Sounds like the diversity is falling into a personal preference breakdown. I'm most comfortable with condition 3 for both a Sig 9mm w/ 17 in the magazine, or a Draco (AK Pistol) With 30 rounds (and Safety off).
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