The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 29, 2013, 09:47 AM   #1
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 2,093
Just another pipe dream.

Again I had to much time on my hands. Being retired that happens allot. I was sitting in my recliner looking out (my) window at my vast 75' wide estate and daydreaming about Shotgun Chokes of all things.

Question: Could something as small in length like a {Rifled} Interchangeable Choke have the ability spin a B/P projectile enough in such small distance to get reasonable accuracy down range?

Is it feasible for use on a B/P platform? (screw-in-chokes)

I personally would like to have a smooth bore for up-land birds and a quicky-twist for the range. But its without doubt I have to have patched ball for that Speed Beef seen occasionally back in the woods. I don't know whether you fellows here would like to have a all-in-one type of B/P rifle. But I sure would like to give one a whirl._

Quote:
If this threads subject matter has possibility's worth looking into?_Hey Thompson Center guy/gal reading this thread. Here's a chance to make some $$$ off the Company's Suggestion Program_
S/S
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old June 29, 2013, 10:09 AM   #2
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,753
The rifled choke "might" work with a solid projectile but would play havoc with your shot loads.
Hawg is offline  
Old June 29, 2013, 01:34 PM   #3
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 2,093
Well why not a smooth (un-rifled) Choke tube for those shot charges. "A does it all kind of combo rifle." But its got to have a side hammer for aesthetic purposes. Reason being: of course no one wants to cradle something in their arms that isn't near to period correctness? I'm on the buy list. Who else?_
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old June 29, 2013, 02:23 PM   #4
9mmfan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 2012
Location: Weatherford, TX
Posts: 296
Isn't that how the Holland & Holland Paradox worked more or less? This is not my area of expertise, so I could be wrong, I don't know if the rifled portion was removable. Seems like it might could work.
9mmfan is offline  
Old June 29, 2013, 07:35 PM   #5
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,778
Well if you walk 20 paces closer to the target, or wait till a deer gets 20 paces closer to you before you shoot, you eliminate the need for that rifled choke tube that will give you 20 paces more accuracy. I'm not a big fan of rifled choke tubes, but that's me.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old June 29, 2013, 09:41 PM   #6
woodnbow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2012
Posts: 129
I've owned BP shotguns that had screw in chokes, they worked just fine, now all you need is a smith to rifle one for you and you'll have a Pedersoli Paradox...

I like the idea, and by the by, an accurate ball shooter will give you quite a bit more than 20 paces increased range. Large dangerous game has been taken with big lead balls at loooong ranges.. See Baker..
woodnbow is offline  
Old June 29, 2013, 09:49 PM   #7
Captchee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 322
or how about go with a strait rifling ?
Captchee is offline  
Old July 2, 2013, 09:00 PM   #8
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,656
What would straight rifling accomplish? It wouldn't spin a ball or a conical bullet, and I gather that is the idea.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old July 2, 2013, 09:49 PM   #9
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,753
It would prevent spin which if I understand correctly is more accurate than a smoothbore with a round ball but not quite as accurate as spiraled rifling and it doesn't affect shot patterns.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 3, 2013, 12:42 AM   #10
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 2,093
Quote:
What would straight rifling accomplish? It wouldn't spin a ball or a conical bullet, and I gather that is the idea.
Absolutely Sir.

Just simply changing out a barrels choke tubes to shoot different projectiles is all I'm wondering why it hasn't been thought of yet? Just think of all the choke tubes that could be sold for one B/P weapon. A choke tube for #6 shot loads for those wanting a shotgun barrel. Another choke tube for patched ball. One for maxi. One for mini. One for sabot. A choke tube best suited for paper patched bullets. Wouldn't that be sweet to own a single rifle that could accomplish all those projectile shootings. {Just by changing out one choke tube to another that suits the application better.} I'd buy one in a heart beat. What's one more (special) rifle to the brace of B/P rifles I already own.

S/S
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old July 3, 2013, 06:24 AM   #11
Captchee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 322
Quote:
It would prevent spin which if I understand correctly is more accurate than a smoothbore with a round ball but not quite as accurate as spiraled rifling and it doesn't affect shot patterns.
I will have to admit that I know little about strait rifling and have only built 1 piece with such a barrel . So I cant really tell you if what I saw was indicative of all barrels with such rifling or not . I was however rather impressed . It held a very good off hand group with RB and at the same time the shot grouping was reasonable at 25 yards .
With some load work I would expect that a modified or full choke type group could have been achieved out to 30
Here are some photos and targets of and from that piece






first 3 shots at 25 yards



target shot off hand at 50 and 75 yards . 18 shots
top 10 are at 50 yards . lower center as well as bottom flier is at 75

Captchee is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 06:59 AM   #12
ChaperallCat
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2013
Posts: 81
do you intend to unscrew the rifled choke tube so that you can reload that solid round ball, conical, or sabot?

thats going to be your greatest issue right there.
ChaperallCat is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 11:13 AM   #13
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 2,093
Quote:
do you intend to unscrew the rifled choke tube so that you can reload that solid round ball, conical, or sabot?
Yep. Yes Sir. Just like a shotgun with choke tubes. Just change them out at will for whatever you want to shoot. I would imagine they would have to be a foot long in length so as to allow the projectile being used a small distance to engrave itself some. The rest of the bore below the interchangeable choke tube all the way to its breech could indeed not have any rifling. Just smooth bore perhaps.

Captchee:
Nice looking flint lock. Which is it 45 or a 50 cal? Stain on its stock kind of reminds me of one of Laurel Mountain's tints. Otherwise you seem to be pretty handy at putting of those kits together. By the way is that a L&R I think I see mounted on that rifle? I like the idea of no patch box. Just a plain jane stock is best I always have thought._ Thanks for the pix's Capt as its always nice to see "Built by Captchee" weapons anytime.

S/S_
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 11:36 AM   #14
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 16,925
Interesting concept. Old on the exterior but modern interior.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 12:43 PM   #15
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,753
Quote:
you seem to be pretty handy at putting of those kits together.
That's not a kit. Captchee is a master builder. He really should show off some of his work.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 04:08 PM   #16
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 2,093
Oops. Didn't know that. Show his work: I agree. Yes He should.
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 05:21 PM   #17
Captchee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 322
Quote:
Captchee:
Nice looking flint lock. Which is it 45 or a 50 cal? Stain on its stock kind of reminds me of one of Laurel Mountain's tints. Otherwise you seem to be pretty handy at putting of those kits together. By the way is that a L&R I think I see mounted on that rifle? I like the idea of no patch box. Just a plain jane stock is best I always have thought._ Thanks for the pix's Capt as its always nice to see "Built by Captchee" weapons anytime.

actually its a 62 . Cal 44 inch barrel O to R
the stock is burl cherry cut from a Bing cherry tree .
The color was abstained with lye which was brought back and then re stained with a mixture of Cordovan and Ox blood .
that was followed with a couple flood coats of linseed .
4 rubbed coats . wet sanded between and then 2 thin coats of Tung.
The lock is a Davis Jaeger.
There is no patch box because the gun is a rendition of a type D Trade gun which would have originally been a smoothbore . But the owner wanted a strait rifled barrel so that’s what I put on it .

the hardware , minus the butt plate are my own sand castings from my foundry.
starit rifling isnt modern , the consept has been around about as long as twist rifling

Last edited by Captchee; July 4, 2013 at 05:31 PM.
Captchee is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 06:45 AM   #18
Captchee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 322
For some reason I been having a hard time wrapping my mind around just what your asking about . But I think I got it now .
IE your thinking of having a smooth barrel with no rifling but for a small section up at the muzzle which would be rifled .

I don’t think that would be advisable as im thinking what could happen is it could act as a restriction unless there was a taper into the rifling , something like a forcing cone .
But even then at such a distance from the actual chamber , it might still act as a restriction and cause over pressure .
Now that being said , I can say it has been done in the past .
There is a type of progressive rifling that that was used in some military applications in muzzleloaders , that had a section of the barrel that wasn’t rifled . From the start of the rifling forwards , it was a true progressive as the rifling twist rate was sped up to the muzzle . Maybe someone else here can refresh my memory as the name for that type of rifling escapes me.

Also I can tell you that back in the 70’s there was a couple companies who had BIG problems with their barrels in that some how they ended up with batches of barrels that only had about ½ of the barrel actually rifled . I would have to go look but I think I have one of those barrels still kicking around my shop .
I can tell you they were considered unsafe . .

But alas times have changed so maybe its doable today . Its past my knowledge base though and I would suggest talking to a barrel maker about it . They would know and should have some sound advise as to if it can be done or not .
Captchee is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 09:40 AM   #19
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,753
Quote:
There is a type of progressive rifling that that was used in some military applications in muzzleloaders , that had a section of the barrel that wasn’t rifled . From the start of the rifling forwards , it was a true progressive as the rifling twist rate was sped up to the muzzle
I know the P53 Enfields had progressive depth rifling where the rifling was shallowest at the muzzle and got deeper the further towards the breech it got. Revolvers of the day had gain twist rifling where the twist got faster as it went towards the muzzle. I'm by no means an expert but I never heard of one being rifled just partway.
Hawg is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 05:50 PM   #20
Captchee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 322
Progressive / Gain rifling comes in two type . Basically twist and depth or depth and twist …..

I been trying to think of the name of the rifling that’s being ask about in this topic . Its bugged me all day . I must be coming down with old timers or something .

Anyway the light finally came on . Its call Fosbery rifling after Lieutenant Colonel George Vincent Fosbery

. Holland and Holland bought the rights and called it the “Paradox “
I believe Holland and Holland still markets it today .
Should be able to do a search and read up on it . Look for Paradox gun or Paradox rifling

Man my head hurts trying to get that out of there LOL . Im going to have to go lay down now LOL

But understand this type of rifling doesn’t just start , it’s a gradual transition in that once the rifling starts it doesn’t restrict the bore
Captchee is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 11:35 PM   #21
ChaperallCat
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2013
Posts: 81
the concept of the op is this.

take a standard smooth bore barrel, thread a foot section starting at the muzzle so that he can install custom choke tubes for bird hunting, and also install a rifled choke tube so that he can get spin on a patched round ball and extend his range a bit.

however the issue is, basically this.

for the birdshot choke, itll work ok. for the rifled section he has a problem on his hands as he will need to remove the rifle choke tube from the gun to reload a patched round ball if he hopes to get accuracy from it.
however if he wants to get what he wants, hes going to have to change his idea somewhat.

and if he messages me, ill tell him how to do it.
ChaperallCat is offline  
Old July 6, 2013, 06:50 AM   #22
Captchee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 322
it was the name of the type of rifling that i was struggling with , not how to do this .

if it were me , i would consider using a Paradox type aplication with an adjustable choke tube that goes from cylinder bore to full . if one insists on needing a choke .

that way you wouldnt need to constantly take the choke tube off . just turn it back to cylinder bore when shooting a projectile
Captchee is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12902 seconds with 9 queries