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Old July 6, 2013, 09:21 PM   #26
buckhorn_cortez
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Unfortunately - that's retail. I'd suggest you either get out now while you still can, or learn to deal with it. I quit retail in 1983 because the level of dumb got too much for me.

I found the following observation just about sums it all up:

"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."

Frank Zappa
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Old July 6, 2013, 09:28 PM   #27
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Tom Servo posted
The absolute highlight of my week is the inevitable know-it-all who pulls a gun out of the holster, sweeps me with it, swears it's not loaded, then seems surprised to find a round that the Magic Bullet Fairy teleported a round into the chamber.
Yeah, the sad thing is that kind of thing happens often enough that I don't even get angry about it any more.
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Old July 7, 2013, 05:13 AM   #28
Old Stony
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I had a lady parole officer wander into my store once and wanted me to check out her issue firearm and advise her about cleaning it better, as she had evidently been taking flak from someone in her dept.
She proceeded to pull a 3" model 64 S&W from her purse with her finger on the trigger and fired a silvertip into the floor. I reached over the counter and took the gun from her and escorted her to a bathroom where we washed the powder residue from her other hand that had been holding the purse, and bandaged her finger that had been creased by the bullet (luckily the finger was still there). This was early in the morning and there were luckily no other customers in the store.
She called her supervisors and they came in with cameras and everything to investigate the incident, and later called to thank me for handling the situation as tastefully as possible. They said she would be scheduled for further training.
No....I don't necessarily even trust all trained "professionals" to keep their wits about them as far as the finger on the trigger business.
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Old July 7, 2013, 11:40 AM   #29
Glenn E. Meyer
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Folks - let's stop using profanity - in this thread. Either I see a row of **** or the abbreviation for such.

So keep your fingers off the key sequence that types such.

GEM
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Old July 7, 2013, 06:59 PM   #30
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I go into gun shops all the time with some of my other less gun smart Marine buddies. Normally they are pretty okay about keeping their fingers off the trigger, but they almost never recheck the gun for a loaded chamber/magazine after it is handed to them and they sweep nearly everything with the muzzle. In all honesty, weapons training is a very small part of the job for Marines (other military members as well, I would assume) that aren't part of the infantry. We go to the range once or twice a year to qualify, but that's really about it. I'll be the first to admit that I know very little about firearms from my military training, I learned almost everything I know from civilian instructors & knowledgeable family/friends.

I always recheck the gun after it is handed to me and before I give it back. I also always ask permission before pointing it at anything or dry firing. The clerks at all of the shops I've been to seem to be pretty appreciative of that.
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Old July 7, 2013, 07:13 PM   #31
Theohazard
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Quote:
SHE3PDOG posted
I go into gun shops all the time with some of my other less gun smart Marine buddies. Normally they are pretty okay about keeping their fingers off the trigger, but they almost never recheck the gun for a loaded chamber/magazine after it is handed to them and they sweep nearly everything with the muzzle. In all honesty, weapons training is a very small part of the job for Marines (other military members as well, I would assume) that aren't part of the infantry.
That actually surprises me quite a bit. Gun safety is drummed into all Marines in boot camp. I thought all Marines were fairly competent with firearm safety and fairly proficient with their weapons.

Having been active duty infantry, I'm sure I have a somewhat skewed view (pretty much all you do in Marine infantry is deploy or train for your next deployment; there were very few days in my four year enlistment that I didn't handle a weapon), but it was my understanding that non-infantry Marines did a fair amount of weapons training also?
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Old July 7, 2013, 08:13 PM   #32
Herr Walther
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I handled weapons when transporting and uploading (tapeload startup) classified targeting tapes for Minuteman II weapon system while in the Air Force.

In Basic, we had an eight hour class and a day on the range. I never saw a weapon again until I got to my first permanent base. Cops and code handlers were the only personnel to be issued weapons.

My son was in the Marine Corps for eight years as a satellite communications technician in the Gulf. He still had an M16 he carried on duty and helped out in more than one skirmish.

I worked as a manager at a gun range/retail store for six years and saw every kind of customer talked about in this thread except the gang-bangers who walked into the store one day with their hands under their hoodies with a counter full of armed customers and would not show their hands when asked to do so.

I'll let you guess as to how that incident worked itself out...
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Old July 8, 2013, 12:08 AM   #33
SHE3PDOG
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That actually surprises me quite a bit. Gun safety is drummed into all Marines in boot camp. I thought all Marines were fairly competent with firearm safety and fairly proficient with their weapons.

Having been active duty infantry, I'm sure I have a somewhat skewed view (pretty much all you do in Marine infantry is deploy or train for your next deployment; there were very few days in my four year enlistment that I didn't handle a weapon), but it was my understanding that non-infantry Marines did a fair amount of weapons training also?
Well, you have to remember that most Marines aren't 03xx (infantry). While a lot of people do help out while deployed, or do some extra training in pre-deployment work ups, most don't handle firearms in their every day jobs. Any military training outside of qualification week is really not up to the Marine; it is up to the command.

Of course, everyone has the option to spend their free time getting civilian marksmanship training, but a lot of people aren't interested in that. I also find it a little funny when people say something like, "My Marine friend said..." or "My friend in the Army said...". As strange as it may seem to some, a lot of military members just simply aren't "gun guys", and they're opinion is not the gold standard.
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Old July 8, 2013, 12:23 AM   #34
Theohazard
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SHE3PDOG posted
I also find it a little funny when people say something like, "My Marine friend said..." or "My friend in the Army said...". As strange as it may seem to some, a lot of military members just simply aren't "gun guys", and they're opinion is not the gold standard.
Yeah, even most infantry guys aren't gun guys. I hate when people say stuff like that! To me, saying something like, "My friend is a Marine and he says this is a great concealed carry gun." is like saying, "My friend is a bus driver and he says this is the best chainsaw on the market."
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Old July 8, 2013, 12:37 AM   #35
dakota.potts
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That's more like saying "My friend is a bus driver and says these are the best brakes on the market! But he's only used the ones that came installed in the bus he was driving and has never used them in a sport sedan on the road"
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Old July 8, 2013, 01:30 AM   #36
SgtLumpy
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So it's really "Some Marines a Rifleman" instead of "Every Marine a Rifleman". I did not know that.

My dad, a SeaBee in WWII, said they used to shoot at garbage thrown from the ship with their M1 and Mauser bolt action rifles.


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Old July 8, 2013, 06:00 AM   #37
Mississippi Grind
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Training

I think this has been pretty well covered that this is a training issue. I personally wouldn't be opposed to all states having heavily safety focus training mandatory for weapons purchases. Regardless, people will still be stupid. I have no qualms about abrasively and vigorously correcting a serious safety issue.. If someone takes offense than they should learn a few "minor" things such as muzzle discipline and trigger safety
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Old July 8, 2013, 09:18 AM   #38
SgtLumpy
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I personally wouldn't be opposed to all states having heavily safety focus training mandatory for weapons purchases.
Boy, there's a can of worms.

I guess that works pretty well in California, eh?


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Old July 8, 2013, 11:28 AM   #39
Glenn E. Meyer
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Mauser? Springfields were copied from the Mauser but did they call them that?

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Old July 8, 2013, 12:32 PM   #40
SgtLumpy
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That basic Mauser bolt action that lots of companies copied. Likely a lot of them in WWII were confiscated from the enemy even though the SeaBees tended to be on the "other" ocean, not near Germany.


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Old July 8, 2013, 12:42 PM   #41
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I personally wouldn't be opposed to all states having heavily safety focus training mandatory for weapons purchases.
That's always a tempting thought, but implementation would only be arbitrary, unfair, expensive, and morally wrong. Worse yet, it won't stop the problem.
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Old July 9, 2013, 07:57 PM   #42
Mainah
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I'm a novice compared to the regulars here. But when I go to a gun counter I watch the clerk check and clear the weapon, and after he hands it to me I do so again. And then I ask for permission to dry fire, and then I do so in a safe direction. And then I get attentive and great service.

It seems to me that the beauty of gun safety protocol is based on redundancy. Who am I to mess with that?
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Old July 9, 2013, 08:14 PM   #43
Bluestarlizzard
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*shrug* I don't know about being more natural or comfortable. I've always found the "rest" position of finger of the trigger to feel very natural.
But then again, like many others here, I was drilled from a fairly young age that unless you're specifically planning on pulling that trigger, your finger stays outside the guard.
The concept of just letting my finger rest on a trigger feels more unnatural at this point.
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Old July 9, 2013, 08:55 PM   #44
SgtLumpy
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The concept of just letting my finger rest on a trigger feels more unnatural at this point.
Scary, to me.


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Old July 9, 2013, 09:01 PM   #45
Glenn E. Meyer
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I was in an exercise with police and civilians - a training drill for active shooters. They had some of the non police employees of the department take part to have some experience of the chaos and also to have an opportunity to shoot some paintball handguns in a critical incident.

They had a stack of these latter folks and one had his paint ball gun resting under the back of the guy in front of him's head with the finger on the trigger. I chastise him and got a dirty look as a civie telling him what to do - but he wasn't an armed police officer just a security guard.
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Old July 10, 2013, 02:33 PM   #46
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The old Finger-Magnet

We teach this during our Hunter Safety classes as safe gun handling rule #4. In demonstration I "point" to the trigger and ask the students what that is. Most look at me a bit confused and then I explain that it's a finger magnet and right off it wants to go in there where it doesn't belong. Most smile and all understand the problem. I then demonstrate how one of the safe gun holds and indexing. They get it and some will likely forget it. At the line, we repeat this rule if we observe this "bad" habit. We also challenge them to hold us accountable for observing the four safe gun handling rules. On one occasion, two students came back to our M/L station and snitched on the instructors at the shotgun station. ......

#4 Don't put your finger in the trigger until you sights are on the target !!!

Be Safe !!!
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Old July 13, 2013, 09:57 AM   #47
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It appears you don't understand the argument, but it's not silly at all.
It appears you don't understand my post. But that's okay. Good luck dealing with your stress.
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Old July 14, 2013, 03:55 AM   #48
Theohazard
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GM1967 posted
It appears you don't understand my post. But that's okay. Good luck dealing with your stress.
I understand your post; you're under the misconception that I don't think anyone should ever put their finger on the trigger when handling a gun at a gun shop.

Like SgtLumpy said, there's a huge difference between keeping your finger constantly on the trigger because you don't know how to handle a gun safely, and testing the trigger in a controlled manner while the gun is pointed in a safe direction.

If you don't know the difference between the two, you may not find yourself welcome at many gun shop counters.
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Last edited by Theohazard; July 14, 2013 at 04:49 AM.
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Old July 14, 2013, 06:47 AM   #49
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Yup, TV has taught all sorts of great firearms tactics like the Charlie's Angels point pistol at your own head while moving from room to room or have the pistol enter the room 3 feet in front of you so you can remain hidden. It's comical.
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Old July 14, 2013, 12:25 PM   #50
Glenn E. Meyer
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I have seen folks do that in FOF, maybe me till I learned.

Once I shot a guy's gun (not real rounds - ) as it came around the corner - for grins.
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