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Old July 4, 2013, 12:18 AM   #1
splatman
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Selling firearms under new Colorado law

I am a Colorado resident seeking the lawful method of selling a firearm to a private party given the recent gun laws that are currently in effect for the state of Colorado.

This is what I learned after speaking with the Colorado Bureau of Investigations (CBI) and several FFL (gun) dealers in the Fort Collins area. In order to sell a firearm legally, it must first be transferred into the inventory of a FFL dealer. The gun dealer would then run a background check on the buyer. If the buyer passes the check, all is good and the buyer can take legal possession of the firearm. However, if the buyer fails the background check, the gun is not automatically returned to the seller. The FFL dealer is required to run a background check on the seller so that the seller can retake legal possession of the firearm. If by some glitch the seller cannot pass a background check, the seller cannot take possession of the firearm, and the FFL dealer would be required to turn the firearm over to the local authorities. According to the CBI, background checks cannot be done in advance on the buyer and seller to ensure there are no glitches in the transaction. This law is risky for both the buyer and the seller. The seller will want the money for the firearm upfront before transferring the firearm to the dealer since there is a chance that he may not be able to regain legal possession of his own firearm (he may fail the background check for some reason or there is a glitch in the system). The buyer will not want to pay the money upfront to the seller unless he can pass the background check first. For law abiding citizens, such fears are not unreasonable. For example I recently received a letter from the Colorado Department of Labor that I was extradited to California on charges which is completely bogus and scary at the same time. Anyhow this legal intimidation to both the seller and the buyer will make it difficult for law abiding citizens to sell their guns to private parties.

Since Colorado law does not mandate FFL dealers to assist citizens with the private sale and transfer of firearms (according to the CBI), most FFL dealers in this area are not willing to run background checks for private citizens for several reasons most of which I think are bogus. Some dealers say that they cannot cover the cost of doing such business since the law caps what they can charge to run a background check. Other FFL dealers say that they just don’t understand the fine details of the law and don’t want to hassle with it. The fact is that these FFL dealers can charge a transfer fee and help the shooting community sell their firearms to private parties. The transfer fee can be set so as to cover the cost of providing this service. My feeling is that if a FFL dealer is not willing to assist in a private firearms transaction for a fee, then don’t do business with them and give them a piece of your mind. Of course they may even approve of this law because it forces people like you and me to purchase guns from dealers instead of private parties. This clearly impedes your ability to sell your private property. Since an automobile can be used to kill someone how come I’m not required to run a background check on the buyer of my vehicle?



California has similar laws but their law requires that FFL dealers run background checks for the private sale and transfer of firearms. Sportsman’s Warehouse in California got stuck with many guns (so I have been told by the CBI) because the sellers could not pass a background check to get their firearms back. This is supposedly the reason why Sportsman’s Warehouse in Colorado has decided not to participate in the private sale and transfer of firearm in Colorado. In my opinion this is a poor excuse and a good demonstration of how not to support the 2nd amendment.

As for me I want to legally sell a collectors firearm. It is a Browning model 71 High Grade 348 Winchester. I am afraid to do so. I have bought a few guns over the last year, and passed a background check without any hitches. However if I try to sell my gun legally under the new Colorado laws, and there is a glitch in the system, I could lose my gun. A chance I am not willing to take especially with a collector gun. So in essence my hands are tied and I cannot freely sell my private property. I am a concerned Colorado citizen wishing I was living somewhere else right now.

-splatman
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Old July 4, 2013, 07:41 AM   #2
rwilson452
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transfer via FFL

There was an incident of this nature here in PA and at my local FFL. Two guys came in to transfer a pistol. In PA all pistol transfers with some exceptions must go via an FFL. the dealer took in the pistol, ran the check and found out the buyer was under an order of protection by his wife. He tried to get it back to the present owner and found he was also under an order of protection also. the dealer was ask if he could stall them until the cops could get there. the guys bugged out but had filled out the 4473 with their correct addresses, oops the cops knew right where to go.
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Old July 4, 2013, 07:58 AM   #3
doofus47
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Welcome to the new world order.

Somehow, I still don't feel safer.
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Old July 4, 2013, 08:03 AM   #4
csmsss
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Protection orders are given out like candy in family court, even when there is no evidence that either party has been violent. Lautenberg's dreadful bill makes criminals out of folks who have done nothing wrong other than offend their spouses.
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Old July 4, 2013, 08:48 AM   #5
Hunter Customs
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The reason the FFL can not just give the firearm back to the original owner is because once it's listed in his books it's considered a consignment sell, this is federal law.

If you want to sell your rifle, sell it to someone out of state.
Get your payment up front from the purchaser including shipping cost and whatever fees your FFL may charge you , take the rifle to your FFL in your state and have him ship it to an FFL in the state the purchaser lives in.
Then the purchaser does the 4473 transfer from the FFL in his state, that way I don't believe you violated any firearm laws and you can still sell your rifle.

Best Regards
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:03 AM   #6
deepcreek
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So can 2 Colorado residents negotiate a gun sale then drive to another state make the sale and dive home ?

or would it be some kind of interstate quadruple felony ???
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:05 AM   #7
Pilot
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Wow, what a huge cluster. I lived in CO for several years, and legally bought and sold many guns there. It used to be a gun friendly state. I can't believe this happened there, and I feel sorry for my CO friends.


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Old July 4, 2013, 09:56 AM   #8
KMAX
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Quote:
It used to be a gun friendly state. I can't believe this happened there, and I feel sorry for my CO friends.
Maybe too many people moved there and turned it into what they moved away from.
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Old July 4, 2013, 01:19 PM   #9
splatman
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Quote:
The reason the FFL can not just give the firearm back to the original owner is because once it's listed in his books it's considered a consignment sell, this is federal law.

If you want to sell your rifle, sell it to someone out of state.
Get your payment up front from the purchaser including shipping cost and whatever fees your FFL may charge you , take the rifle to your FFL in your state and have him ship it to an FFL in the state the purchaser lives in.
Then the purchaser does the 4473 transfer from the FFL in his state, that way I don't believe you violated any firearm laws and you can still sell your rifle.

You are missing the point! There is no advantage of selling a gun to someone out of state. In fact its more difficult! In the past I could meet someone in a parking lot and sell them my gun end of story. Now there is too much risk involved from both the seller and the buyers point of view because you have to go thru an FFL dealer and who knows whether you or the buyer can pass a background check.
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Old July 4, 2013, 10:33 PM   #10
Hunter Customs
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Yes I guess I did miss the point, I thought it was that you wanted to sell your rifle.

I understand your point about having to deal with state and federal laws before you can sell your personal property.
I agree it sucks big time, I guess your only recourse is to try and repeal the law.

Best Regards
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Old July 5, 2013, 09:34 AM   #11
iraiam
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It's worse than that even, I saw a guy transfer a firearm to an FFL for them to sell on consignment, He had to do a background check.

They way I read the law, one of the very few exceptions to these "universal" background checks is transferring a firearm to and from a gunsmith.
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Old July 5, 2013, 10:52 AM   #12
splatman
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Quote:
Yes I guess I did miss the point, I thought it was that you wanted to sell your rifle.

I understand your point about having to deal with state and federal laws before you can sell your personal property.
I agree it sucks big time, I guess your only recourse is to try and repeal the law.
I apologize this state makes me grumpy. This is what I think the real crux of the
situation is: Why would someone risk buying a gun from a private party? The buyer would have to pay for the gun in advance because any sane seller would
require it. If the buyer cannot pass a background check, he just lost his money
and he has no gun. Now if a buyer goes to an FFL dealer to buy a gun and he
cannot pass the background check he GETS his money back. The law is really
designed to confiscate guns when background checks fail. The law could
have been designed in such a way so that background checks are done up front and if all is good then transfer the firearm through the FFL.
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Old July 6, 2013, 08:09 AM   #13
2ndsojourn
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^^^ splatman, what he's saying is selling out of state through FFL's, you get your money, transfer the gun and it's not your problem any more. If the guy on the other end has a background check problem, it's his problem.
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Old July 6, 2013, 10:22 AM   #14
Hunter Customs
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Quote:
They way I read the law, one of the very few exceptions to these "universal" background checks is transferring a firearm to and from a gunsmith.
If you transfer a gun to a gunsmith in person then you must be the one who receives the gun back from the gunsmith.

If you send someone else to receive the gun for you they will be required to fill out a 4473 and do the appropriate back ground check.

Best Regards
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www.huntercustoms.com
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Old July 6, 2013, 10:36 AM   #15
Hunter Customs
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No need to apologize splatman, I understand your situation totally.

Best Regards
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Old July 6, 2013, 08:20 PM   #16
splatman
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^^^ splatman, what he's saying is selling out of state through FFL's, you get your money, transfer the gun and it's not your problem any more. If the guy on the other end has a background check problem, it's his problem.
Am I missing something? I can do the same thing at my local FFL. Like you
imply the buyer takes all the risk because he will not get his money back if he cannot pass the background check whether you do the transaction in state or out of state. If I use my local FFL I will still get the money up front. Why?
because if the buyer cannot pass the check, I have to undergo a check to get
my rifle back. So If I fail the check I'm out a rifle cause the FFL has to hand the gun over to the local sheriff. And so a buyer is much more likely to buy
from an FFL dealer cause he CAN get his money back if he fails the background
check. So the overall effect is that its much harder to sell a gun in Colorado
cause now its law that you have to go thru an FFL. Sorry to keep beating
a dead horse but it is what it is.
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