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Old August 24, 2013, 04:32 AM   #51
Brit
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As the only two people in my little house are my Wife and I, shooting through walls is not a big concern, pistols are easier to maneuver than long guns, hence 9mm Glock 19, carried all the time, sits next to me when I sleep.

As 16 rounds are in the pistol, easily controlled 147g Ranger, 3 rounds each for any bad guys, 5 bad guys, and a spare? The practical side of shooting indoors NOISE! The 9mm is OK in that respect. More so than a AK, yes?
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Old August 24, 2013, 10:04 AM   #52
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Re: Caliber size wound effects on the human body

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Originally Posted by Brit View Post
The practical side of shooting indoors NOISE! The 9mm is OK in that respect. More so than a AK, yes?
I'd expect the 9mm will still be pretty concussive in an enclosed room--possibly even non-discernable from an assault rifle for practical purposes. I'm not familiar with 9mm velocities, but if they're supersonic, a .45 might even be marginally quieter due to their innately subsonic travel.

Either way, expect hearing damage if it comes down to needing to fire. At least you and your family will be the ones walking away.
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Old August 25, 2013, 12:43 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikakiah
I'd expect the 9mm will still be pretty concussive in an enclosed room--possibly even non-discernable from an assault rifle for practical purposes. I'm not familiar with 9mm velocities, but if they're supersonic, a .45 might even be marginally quieter due to their innately subsonic travel.
Yeah, a 9mm fired inside will be very hard in your ears, but a rifle will be MUCH worse. And a supersonic 9mm versus a subsonic .45 isn't going to be very different; they'll both be painfully loud indoors.

And I hate to nitpick terminology, but using the incorrect term "assault rifle" to refer to an AR or AK just helps the anti-gunners who want to ban them. Assault rifles have never been legal for normal sale in the US and "assault weapons" don't technically exist; and if more non-gun people actually knew this there would be fewer people pushing for the ridiculous "assault weapons" ban.
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Old August 27, 2013, 01:29 AM   #54
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For home defense I would have to say the AK47 is probably the best choice.
Nope.


Are you going to carry that AK room to room as you carry out your daily activities?

Are you going to have that AK by your side when you answer the door bell?

Are you going to have that AK with you while you're sitting on the front porch or on the back deck?

Are you going to have that AK with you when you go to use the toilet?

Are you going to have that AK with you when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen?

Are you going to have that AK with you while you're working on your car in the garage?

Are you going to carry that AK while you're checking your mail box or while you're walking your dog?

Are you going to carry that AK while you're mowing the lawn or weeding the flower beds?

Are you going to have that AK beside you while you grill a steak on the BBQ?

Are you going to have that AK with you while you clean the swimming pool?

Etc....



The rifle or shotgun will most likely not be at hand when you really need it.
But you can have a handgun in your holster or in your pocket all the time 24/7, and you will always be ready to defend your home.
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Old August 27, 2013, 09:56 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by peacefulgary
Nope.
That's not really helpful. And saying he's wrong isn't necessarily correct and it oversimplifies the issue. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

If I have time to get to it, an AR-15 in 5.56 is my go-to home defense weapon. That said, a handgun is alway on my body or close by, so that's what I'm going to use if I'm not near my rifle and I don't have the time or the opportunity to retreat to my rifle.

Each type of weapon has advantages and disadvantages over the other.
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Old August 27, 2013, 12:55 PM   #56
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That's not really helpful. And saying he's wrong isn't necessarily correct and it oversimplifies the issue. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
Let me clarify...

A rifle is great if you're fighting marauders who have surrounded your land and are trying to get inside your castle keep.
Or if your group has "circled the wagons" and are fighting off a large group of attackers.

But inside your home the handgun rules.

Unless you own a humongous mansion just about any self defense shooting, inside a home, is going to be most likely less than 20 feet.
And in most cases it will probably be less than 10 feet.
Small rooms, narrow hallways, low ceilings, stairs, furniture, etc. all make the long gun rather awkward and unwieldy to use inside the home.
And inside the home there will probably be the need to shoot one handed, the other hand busy opening/closing doors, turning on/off lights, holding the phone while talking to the 911 dispatcher, holding a child's hand, holding the dog's leash, holding a flashlight, etc...
And while you can shoot a rifle with one hand it will not be as quick on target as shooting a handgun with one hand.
And it's much easier for an assailant to seize and wrest away a long gun than a handgun.


Rifles are great for hunting, target shooting, warfare, and sniping.
But for inside the home defense, the handgun rules.
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Old August 28, 2013, 01:39 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by peacefulgary
But for inside the home defense, the handgun rules.
Not necessarily. If I'm in a stationary position, I'd much rather have an AR-15.

If I've got several people trying to break down my front door for a home invasion, I'd MUCH rather be waiting for them with an AR-15.

If I've got my family barricaded up in the master bedroom and we're waiting for the cops because someone broke into our house in the middle of the night, I'd MUCH rather be waiting for them with my AR-15 if they decide to come up the stairs.

I have a family. If some unknown number of people breaks in to my house in the middle of the night, I'm not going to run around my house room-clearing and try to engage them. I'm going to grab my handgun, gather my family, retreat to a safe room, call the cops, and then grab my AR-15 and prepare to shoot anyone who might threaten us before the cops can get here.

An AR-15 is FAR more terminally effective, will penetrate less through walls, and is much easier to shoot fast and accurately.

However there are plenty of times when a rifle isn't nearby and wouldn't be as useful even if it was: If I'm in the kitchen helping my wife make dinner and some meth-head charges in through our screen door, I'll have my handgun right there, ready to use.

A handgun is more handy and portable, is easier to maneuver through tight corners, is usually faster to bring into action, and is far easier to keep either on your body or close by at all times.

They both have their places for home defense.
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Old August 28, 2013, 02:46 AM   #58
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Not necessarily. If I'm in a stationary position, I'd much rather have an AR-15.
But in a self defense situation you will not know if you are going to be stationary until the situation is over.
In other words, you just can't plan to be stationary.
Self defense situations are fluid, dynamic.

Quote:
If I've got several people trying to break down my front door for a home invasion, I'd MUCH rather be waiting for them with an AR-15.
And would this group of people really give you ample warning and time to retrieve your rifle, and then wait together on the front porch while one or two of them try to break down your front door?
This is pure fantasy.

Quote:
If I've got my family barricaded up in the master bedroom and we're waiting for the cops because someone broke into our house in the middle of the night, I'd MUCH rather be waiting for them with my AR-15 if they decide to come up the stairs.
And how did your entire family find themselves barricaded in the master bedroom?
A criminal broke in to your home and your family instantly all ran to the master bedroom where you, with your rifle, were waiting to defend them?

Quote:
I have a family. If some unknown number of people breaks in to my house in the middle of the night, I'm not going to run around my house room-clearing and try to engage them. I'm going to grab my handgun, gather my family, retreat to a safe room, call the cops, and then grab my AR-15 and prepare to shoot anyone who might threaten us before the cops can get here.
How exactly are you going to "gather your family in the middle of the night" without going room to room?
BTW, you should call the cops first.
That way, at least help is on the way regardless of whatever else transpires.
Otherwise you might get killed while trying to gather your family or while trying to retreat to the safe room, and a 911 call may never be made.
Call 911 first.

Quote:
An AR-15 is FAR more terminally effective, will penetrate less through walls, and is much easier to shoot fast and accurately.
More terminally effective?
Maybe, and maybe not.
From Vietnam to the present plenty of folks have taken multiple hits from a AR type of weapon and lived to tell the tale.
It's a good rifle system, but not really that impressive from a self defense stand point.

Penetrate less through walls?
Maybe, and maybe not.

Easier to shoot fast and accurately?
Not necessarily.
Especially when being fired inside a home and possibly with one hand.


I was a soldier for six years and I am definitely familiar with the AR type rifle, and for in home self defense it is just not that great.
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Old August 28, 2013, 03:33 AM   #59
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Three ear plugs sit on a tray, next to my Glock 19.

We sleep upstairs, if some people made enough noise getting in, I would be waiting at the top of the stairs, prone.

I think I could make a head shot, at three yards! The alarm would have been activated it is clipped to my lamp.

Response time by OCSO in the early hours of the morning, quick.

Long guns are in the safe. Sixteen rounds of 147g Ranger, should be OK!
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Old August 28, 2013, 04:10 AM   #60
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Re: Caliber size wound effects on the human body

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Originally Posted by Brit View Post
Three ear plugs sit on a tray, next to my Glock 19.
You have 3 ears? Probably enhances your early warning, huh?

Sorry, it's late, I couldn't resist...
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Old August 28, 2013, 07:55 AM   #61
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One goes up a nostril! Thought was, fumbling to get them inserted, might drop one? Or I just ended up with two packs, lost one.

Who knows.
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Old August 28, 2013, 10:09 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peacefulgary posted
But in a self defense situation you will not know if you are going to be stationary until the situation is over.
In other words, you just can't plan to be stationary.
Self defense situations are fluid, dynamic.
Which is why there is a place for both a handgun AND a rifle for home defense. I have both in my bedroom and I can use either as needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacefulgary
And would this group of people really give you ample warning and time to retrieve your rifle, and then wait together on the front porch while one or two of them try to break down your front door?
This is pure fantasy.
Really? The funny thing is that of all my scenarios here, this is the only one that has actually happened to me. Except in this case our door was too strong and they couldn't break it down, so after a while they went away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacefulgary posted
And how did your entire family find themselves barricaded in the master bedroom?
A criminal broke in to your home and your family instantly all ran to the master bedroom where you, with your rifle, were waiting to defend them?
Did you read my next example?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacefulgary posted
How exactly are you going to "gather your family in the middle of the night" without going room to room?
BTW, you should call the cops first.
That way, at least help is on the way regardless of whatever else transpires.
Otherwise you might get killed while trying to gather your family or while trying to retreat to the safe room, and a 911 call may never be made.
Call 911 first.
Grabbing my kids from the next room is a lot different than clearing my whole house looking for bad guys. And the first thing I'm doing is checking on my kids, I'm not going to spend precious minutes calling 911 until I know my kids are safe. If my wife calls 911, that's ideal, but I have priorities. I've had the cops take well over an hour to arrive on several occasions: I'm the first line of defense for my family, not the police.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacefulgary posted
More terminally effective?
Maybe, and maybe not.
From Vietnam to the present plenty of folks have taken multiple hits from a AR type of weapon and lived to tell the tale.
It's a good rifle system, but not really that impressive from a self defense stand point.
This is true, but that doesn't mean it's less effective than a handgun. With the right ammo a .223/5.56 is FAR more effective than any self-defense handgun round. That's really not debatable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacefulgary posted
Penetrate less through walls?
Maybe, and maybe not.
With good self-defense ammo (ballistic-tipped hollow points) it will almost always penetrate less through walls. Look up some videos on YouTube or even try it yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacefulgary posted
Easier to shoot fast and accurately?
Not necessarily.
Especially when being fired inside a home and possibly with one hand.
You're right: "not necessarily". But under most circumstances and for most people, a rifle is much easier to shoot fast and accurately. And, depending on your training, experience, and rife weight, it can be pretty easy to shoot one-handed too (but I agree it's not as easy to shoot one-handed as a handgun).

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacefulgary posted
I was a soldier for six years and I am definitely familiar with the AR type rifle, and for in home self defense it is just not that great.
I was in the Marine Corps infantry for four years. I am extremely experienced, familiar, and effective with a AR-15. I'm well aware of its strengths and weaknesses, and I'm also aware that my role as a home protector is different than my role as Marine. And an AR-15 makes almost as good of a defensive weapon for me as it did as an offensive weapon.

Gary, the tone of your post seems to be implying that I'm saying a rifle should replace a handgun for home defense. I'm not saying that at all. I'm simply saying that both have their place inside the home.
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Old August 28, 2013, 11:05 AM   #63
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Takes police an hour to come in an emergency situation you must be living in the Detroit area.

Whatever is being used is certainly better than a sharp stick and if in ones situation it is found that a handgun or rifle is more suitable than so be it. Arguments and hypothetical situations can be made for both sides in this case in which it is better to let that persons personal experience and comfortably guide which is that person's ideal choice for such situation(s). In my situation a rifle wouldn't be that well suited as i live in an apartment and the mobility of the rifle/shotgun is an issue so i just leave it in my bedroom in case, like mentioned, someone comes in while me and my fiance are in the bedroom waiting, i have the shotgun ready to go. I carry around the handgun everywhere to add to Garys points. If i was in a place where such a retreat could be made then again my stance would change as far as which is more ideal but for the current situation the handgun is the most ideal for me.

As far as calling 911 first that is going to most likely be made on the spot. Ideally i would just dial the numbers and hit call and just leave my end null of talking if i the situation calls for immediate action on my part such as if i had kids and went to secure them.
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Old August 28, 2013, 11:49 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandafp
Takes police an hour to come in an emergency situation you must be living in the Detroit area.
I grew up in Washington, DC. Not being allowed to own guns AND having the police take anywhere from a half-hour to over an hour to respond to a distress call is a great combo. But that's what happened to my family on several occasions when I was a kid.

And once living in San Antonio my wife called 911 after our neighbor's front door was kicked in (it was the middle of the day and I was at work). After calling a second time, the police finally arrived a hour after the first call.

That's my experience with calling the police. I hope it's not typical, but it's what I got used to.

And I'm definitely going to call 911 at the first opportunity I get, but if my kids might be in danger I'm going to check on them first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pandafp
In my situation a rifle wouldn't be that well suited as i live in an apartment and the mobility of the rifle/shotgun is an issue so i just leave it in my bedroom in case, like mentioned, someone comes in while me and my fiance are in the bedroom waiting, i have the shotgun ready to go. I carry around the handgun everywhere to add to Garys points.
Exactly. Each weapon has its own strength and weaknesses; each can be a good option depending on the situation.
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Old August 28, 2013, 12:53 PM   #65
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It's typical here in Detroit as well. Lucky for police to come if you have found a body on the side of the road or if there is a shootout in the yard of an apartment complex.
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Old August 28, 2013, 01:04 PM   #66
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I don't see long guns and short guns being mutually exclusive, more as complimenting each other.

I think it was Mr. Ayoob who first demonstrated the utility of the long gun being the "defensive position" (forted up in bedroom) firearm of choice, while the handgun is better suited for the "scout" mission, retrieving the children, etc., etc.
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Old August 30, 2013, 06:00 PM   #67
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Nope.


Are you going to carry that AK room to room as you carry out your daily activities?

Are you going to have that AK by your side when you answer the door bell?

Are you going to have that AK with you while you're sitting on the front porch or on the back deck?

Are you going to have that AK with you when you go to use the toilet?

Are you going to have that AK with you when you're making a sandwich in the kitchen?

Are you going to have that AK with you while you're working on your car in the garage?

Are you going to carry that AK while you're checking your mail box or while you're walking your dog?

Are you going to carry that AK while you're mowing the lawn or weeding the flower beds?

Are you going to have that AK beside you while you grill a steak on the BBQ?

Are you going to have that AK with you while you clean the swimming pool?

Etc....
If we are talking about [at home] then the availability of a firearm is what is paramount. You do not necessarily have to carry a firearm on you or at arms length 24/7 in order to survive a criminal attack [at home]. Certainly choosing a home defense weapon based primarily on what you can carry 24/7 while at home is very short sighted. People routinely defend themselves [at home] with a firearm that they retrieved at the onset of a violent occurrence.
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Old August 30, 2013, 07:14 PM   #68
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People routinely defend themselves [at home] with a firearm that they retrieved at the onset of a violent occurrence.
Completely true, but wouldn't you agree it's sub-optimal? I got stuck at one end of my house thinking someone was about to kick my back door and my HD firearm was at the other end of the house. Not a very comfortable feeling!
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Old August 30, 2013, 07:19 PM   #69
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As for the OP... you are really going to pick what you're going to choose for home defense based on how much the guns were able to move around a jug of water? You really need to do some more research before coming to the conclusion "the AK-47 must be best for home defense" you just made. You have much to learn.
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Old August 30, 2013, 08:28 PM   #70
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The main point, in an attack, coming through the door, 1 minute, 2? You have to respond, with ability to use deadly force, in one to 2 minutes! PERIOD!

All the rest is crap! Rifle/Shotgun/Subgun? Where are they? These weapons? In you arms? Leaned against the wall? Under the bed?

One to 2 minutes!

If it is not on your belt, you ain't armed!

And you need a bunch of rounds, why? better still, why not!
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Old August 31, 2013, 01:17 PM   #71
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If a person can make entry to your home in less time than it takes for you to retrieve a shotgun from the closet or pistol from a nightstand, you need much better doors and windows. I am not going to walk around my home with a firearm waiting on the day that ninjas spring through picture window in the den. I don't live that way and if that is the only way I can reasonable feel safe, then I will move. I have 1 shotgun loaded and ready in the bedroom closet and a loaded 357 in the nightstand. Is that the most "perfect" set of circumstance?..nope but its how I live and I wont allow the potential threat that ninja airbenders pose- to change the way I live.

I live in a smallish 2500sqft rancher and can easily get up from my easy chair, set my glass down, walk to the bedroom and come back with a loaded shotgun in less than 1 minute. (heck, I just timed it... a whole casual 36 seconds) 10 seconds if I run, 5 seconds to actually get my hands on the weapon at a run. My available firearms will have to be good enough simply because that's how it is.
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Old August 31, 2013, 01:43 PM   #72
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FireForged, in giving my view, it was just for me, what I do. If I am dressed, I have a Glock and a Cell phone. An old plaid robe has the same goods!

Bedside table, the same.

Not to difficult really. I live in a great development, 133 town homes, same way in, as out.

Not expecting a home invasion, but they have happened. Am I worried? No.
Plus I do not advocate long guns, any, in the house. But to each his own.
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Old August 31, 2013, 02:21 PM   #73
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FireForged, that is well and good, unless you are in the living room and the break-in happens via your bedroom window....
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Old August 31, 2013, 02:43 PM   #74
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FireForged, that is well and good, unless you are in the living room and the break-in happens via your bedroom window....
It is well and good, it means I wont have to run back to the living room. I really feel sorry for someone who is going to break 2 panes of glass and try to hurry through uninjured in 5 seconds. I will have my hands on a shotgun in that time. But, yes.. no plan is perfect and the reality is that you cant plan for everything.
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Old August 31, 2013, 02:55 PM   #75
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And because I can't plan (for the random intentions of theoretical bad guys), the handgun on my person beats the shotgun and rifles in my safe.
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