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Old June 30, 2013, 06:34 PM   #1
NHSHOOTER
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recoil question

I want to teach a young lady to shoot so she can hunt in this falls youth hunt, I have a model seven in 7-08 and load my own, my question is, is it better to load a light bullet light or a heavy bullet light to get the best lessened recoil results?
Thanks in advance for you help..
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Old June 30, 2013, 07:28 PM   #2
ligonierbill
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Light bullet, light charge. Find some 120's and go to start loads. You can also find some very light loads using pistol powders. I'm sure someone here can suggest some. A few years ago, I introduced my brother to a 7 mm Rem Mag with light 120 loads. They were real pussycats, but plenty accurate.
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Old June 30, 2013, 11:29 PM   #3
Dixie Gunsmithing
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Actually, if you use the same powder charge with a light bullet as you do a heavy, the light will have more recoil due to increased muzzle velocity (rep. energy). You have to drop the powder, too, if you want them to match.

Last edited by Dixie Gunsmithing; July 1, 2013 at 12:47 AM.
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Old June 30, 2013, 11:40 PM   #4
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All else being equal, recoil is proportional to the momentum of the projectile, not the energy of the projectile.

Momentum is proportional to the product of the velocity and the weight of the projectile.

So assuming that the gun is the same and the powder charge is reasonably similar in weight, you can determine which of two loads will create less recoil by multiplying the muzzle velocity times the bullet weight and selecting the load that has the lowest product.
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Old July 1, 2013, 12:32 AM   #5
Dixie Gunsmithing
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Thanks John, I meant to say muzzle velocity, and don't know why I said energy. I must have been thinking of something else as I wrote it.
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Old July 1, 2013, 03:22 PM   #6
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Thanks for all the input, I know I can always count on good feedback here on "The Firing Line"...
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Old July 1, 2013, 03:48 PM   #7
BigD_in_FL
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Here ya go:

If one knows the average velocity of the escaping propellant, the free recoil velocity (in a vacuum) is simply:

V = ( b*v + c*p ) / W

where b is the bullet's weight, v the muzzle velocity, c the charge weight, p the average velocity of the escaping propellant gases, and W is the rifle's weight.
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Old July 2, 2013, 08:04 AM   #8
Rifleman1776
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I would do considerable training with a .22lr before handing her a deer rifle. When she learns to shoot and has confidence, then put a cf in her hands. The -08 might be too much gun for a tiny girl. IMHO, the .243 is the perfect deer rifle for a small or younger person.
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Old July 2, 2013, 08:25 AM   #9
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To deal with the recoil of an 8 pound rifle shooting a 338 250 gr at 2600 or a 7mm 150 gr at 3300 fps, I learned to use soft AND wide recoil pads.

My favorite is the Limbsaver large grind to fit that I do not grind.

The reasons for this are that recoil pain starts somewhere around 20 psi on the skin:
1) A soft recoil pad spreads the recoil over time as it compresses.
2) A soft recoil pad spreads the recoil over area to comply with the shape of the shoulder.
3) A wide and tall recoil pad spreads the recoil over area

Together, these factors keep the worst spot on my shoulder skin below 20 psi, and I never feel any pain at all. I can shoot the magnums all day and not feel pain.

My father in the 1960s would get his shoulder bruised all black and blue from clay pigeon loads in a 12 ga shotgun. The recoil pads back then were hard as a rock.
Get rid of those narrow and hard old recoil pads.
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Old July 2, 2013, 08:35 AM   #10
Brian Pfleuger
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If you handload and you MUST start with that rifle, get some Trail Boss and load it per IMRs instructions.

Much better, would be to start with a 22 and progress to something like a 223 or 22-250 and then to a .243. If you're deer hunting, I'd stop at the 243 anyway but you could then progress to the 7-08.

If you start at the 7-08, with any normal load, "reduced" recoil or not the young lady is not likely to enjoy shooting it. The Trail Boss loads would work great but the problem will still be "stepping up". The next step up would be significant recoil, comparatively.

In any case, I'd absolutely start with a 22 if she doesn't shoot at all currently.
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Old July 2, 2013, 09:27 AM   #11
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Get her a good electronic ear muff. She will want to hear everything and gun report noise will cause a new shooter to loose interest in some cases before recoil.
Good luck and have fun.
I have a niece that is in Grad school coming in a week and she is looking forward to shooting again. She grew up in a home without firearms and is totally enjoying time with her cousins and GUNS
And she will leave with a gun this time.
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Old July 2, 2013, 10:07 AM   #12
jmr40
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Simply play around with some different options here. Look at loading manuals to get an idea of velocities and powder charges and plug in the numbers.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

That way you will know instead of just guessing, or hoping internet advice is accurate.

The wildcard that many don't consider is powder charge. Look around at load data and you will find that many powders will get equal velocity, with less powder. The powder charge has almost as much effect on recoil as bullet weight. Sometimes you can get 99% of the same speed with 10% less powder than you were using. That will often reduce recoil with virtually no loss in performance.
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Old July 2, 2013, 10:37 AM   #13
Brian Pfleuger
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The difference in recoil to a new shooter between any two relatively full power loads in a 7mm-08 is going to be about zero.

On paper, light-bullets with light powder charges generally have less recoil. "Less" doesn't matter if it's still "harsh". Most new shooters, particularly small, young and/or meek, and not going to enjoy the recoil from a 7-08.

Here's a calculation from QuickLoad:

139gr Hornady SP, 24" barrel max load Rl-17, 2,972 fps, recoil after gas effect, 15.39ft/lbs, momentum 87.62 lb.ft/s

Same bullet, powder with 10% lower max charge, H4895, 2,907 fps (97.8%), recoil after gas effect, 14.02ft/lbs (91%), momentum 83.61 lb.ft/s (95%).

That difference isn't going to matter one whit to a new shooter.

Possibly, if you cut it down to a 110gr and went with a powder that maxes out about 10% lower charge than the highest velocity charges but still gets close to the same speed, which would be a 110gr Speer over IMR4895, you cut the recoil energy down to 7.98 (49% reduction) but the momentum is still 81.12, only an 8% reduction. Still, that load would be considerably more comfortable, taking out more than half the "punch" and leaving more of a "rolling" recoil.

However, load a 139gr Hornady over a max load of Trail Boss and you get 2.46ft/lbs and 42.44 lb.ft/s, a reduction of 85% and 52%, respectively. That load would be entirely tolerable for even the smallest, most recoil averse shooters.
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Old July 2, 2013, 04:12 PM   #14
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The young lady in question is quite proficient with the 22 long rifle and she has already shot the 7-08 and isnt the least bit afraid of it, I am just looking for the softest recoil I can get for her so she can get some practice in. She is big for her age and weighs in at 110 lbs. I surely would not want to make her recoil shy, but she really wants to hunt deer and I have limited resources and cant really afford to go out and buy another rifle. I think she will do fine with the 7-08..
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Old July 2, 2013, 05:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Actually, if you use the same powder charge with a light bullet as you do a heavy, the light will have more recoil due to increased muzzle velocity (rep. energy). You have to drop the powder, too, if you want them to match.
I had thought it was the opposite. The heavier projectiles create more recoil because more mass is being pushed out the barrel.

That's why a .45-70 with a 630 grain bullet @ 1000fps will have more kick than a .243 win with a 58 grain bullet @4000 fps in an equal weight rifle.
The .243 using more powder and developing more muzzle energy.
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Old July 2, 2013, 05:21 PM   #16
Dixie Gunsmithing
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I agree with Clark on the soft pads. They feel a heck of a lot better to the shooter than the old red rubber beasts.
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Old July 2, 2013, 05:34 PM   #17
Dixie Gunsmithing
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JD0x0,

Below is a good summary, quote:

"The total momentum of a system is conserved if there are no outside forces acting on it.

"Gun recoil results from conservation of total momentum of the bullet-gun system: the backward recoil gun momentum balances the forward bullet momentum to maintain zero total momentum.

"Gun recoil actually has two parts: primary recoil from the escaping bullet and secondary recoil from the escaping gas behind the bullet".

Essentially, the more momentum forward, the more reward. It works between mass and velocity.

From:

http://www.bsharp.org/physics/recoil

and;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil
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Old July 2, 2013, 07:04 PM   #18
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Sorry Clark - not grinding them to fit means the guns do not fit; and that makes no sense to me. I would prefer to have a gun that actually fits, especially a shotgun
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Old July 2, 2013, 11:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
...not grinding them to fit means the guns do not fit...
The "grind to fit" designation means that the pad is provided oversize and is meant to be ground to fit the gunstock so that there's no overlap of the pad to the stock. It has nothing to do with whether or not the gun fits the shooter.
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Old July 2, 2013, 11:11 PM   #20
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Hodgdon® H4895® REDUCED RIFLE LOADS for
Youth Hunting, Informal Target and Plinking


7-08 Data in left column.
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Old July 3, 2013, 07:24 PM   #21
BigD_in_FL
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Quote:
The "grind to fit" designation means that the pad is provided oversize and is meant to be ground to fit the gunstock so that there's no overlap of the pad to the stock. It has nothing to do with whether or not the gun fits the shooter.
I know that, but when you fit them to the gun, and they are still oversized, odds are they are not being properly placed in the shoulder pocket. Would be better to simply used a slip-on pad
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