The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old July 4, 2013, 03:12 PM   #26
KyJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 7,582
Quick question. How many of you folks posting (besides Tom Servo) watched the videos? He's talking about those posting here.
__________________
Jim's Rules of Carry: 1. Any gun is better than no gun. 2. A gun that is reliable is better than a gun that is not. 3. A hole in the right place is better than a hole in the wrong place. 4. A bigger hole is a better hole.
KyJim is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 03:24 PM   #27
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 1,717
I watched them both....I laughed....and I can't wait until he gets around to the Magnum calibers....
__________________
Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......
seeker_two is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 03:28 PM   #28
Niner4Tango
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2007
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 250
Very funny videos! Thanks for posting.
Niner4Tango is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 08:59 PM   #29
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
WRONG!....

Oh, another "errornet" post or how crazy rumors get started.
The USMC do not carry the M9. They got a new pistol contract for the Beretta M9a1 model. It has the 1913 tactical rail & new improved magazines.
FWIW, there was a push in the late 2000s for the US Marine Corps to set up their own separate armed service dept but it went nowhere due to budget cuts & lack of support from the US Congress.
R Lee Emery, the well known actor & star of a few Glock ads, testified before Congress about the issue. Emery was also a USMC veteran; www.imdb.com .

I agree with a few TFLers that the 1911 sidearm use in the 2000s has been vastly over-rated. The model has been in use since 1907 or so, there are many, many users & supporters.
In fact, I saw a 5" barrel 1911a1 .45acp in a Blackhawk SERPA on the hip of a police detective in the small suburb near my city. This was on the TV news 2 days ago.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 09:06 PM   #30
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,336
Quote:
How many of you folks posting (besides Tom Servo) watched the videos?
I really don't think any of them did. And they're arguing nonetheless. It's truly surreal.

Just to muddy the waters a bit, what of the .40 S&W?
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 09:20 PM   #31
Winchester_73
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,859
I have a nice group of 45s, mostly Colt and a AMT, and I like them. I know if I did my part, they would do their part. However, do I prefer a 9mm in that grave situation, and do I trust my life to a 9mm? Yes I do.

Part of this argument stems from ball vs ball, in the various wars and conflicts, where a 45 there has a big advantage. With modern ammo, say 9mm+P HP, like a hydra-shok, the 45 loses some of its "big" advantage. Of course, you could always carry hydra-shoks in a 45, but then you have greater recoil, a bigger gun to carry, less rounds, slower follow up shot, etc. Remember the FBI statistic that only 33% of shots in a gunfight are on target. Part of the 45 "advantage" is the major assumption that you won't miss. I of course have a more practical opinion which is, I accept that I may miss, so I have a lower recoil gun, with more rounds. Then again, if you have a plain 1911, with 7+1, and you shoot all 8 rounds, and you need more, its time to run. Sometimes I think the capacity advantage of a 9mm is over stated, but its real and tangible, ready and willing, if it would be needed.

Aside from all of that, my opinion has always been that it takes a brain bigger than a 45 to understand why the 9mm is a better choice in many ways. Its kind of like elementary math vs trig, of course everyone understands 2+2, but trig takes a lot more to grasp. The whole bigger is better thing can be traced all the way back to guns such as the Colt Walker, and even prior guns, where the bullet technology was in its infancy, and so you either made the bullet bigger, which made it heavier, or you attempted to make the velocity faster. There was no other way. Fast forward 170+ years, and we are not faced with the exact same situation. And ya, I know I know, the Marines went back to 45, and many PDs have 45s again, but there are MANY factors which go into such choices, not just "hey look, its like a bus vs a small pickup."
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west
Winchester_73 is offline  
Old July 4, 2013, 11:21 PM   #32
.38Catt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2006
Posts: 248
Is that why I carry a 9mm? I'm glad someone told me. I thought it was because I like and could afford the P95 which happens to be a 9mm.

.38Catt
.38Catt is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 09:48 AM   #33
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,084
I can't get to the videos from here, but I've watched a number of Mr. Noir's videos, including those on 9mm and 45 acp carriers. Both are very entertaining.
__________________
A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills.

If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman
Spats McGee is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 09:59 AM   #34
KyJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 7,582
Quote:
ust to muddy the waters a bit, what of the .40 S&W?
LOL! That resolves the debate.
__________________
Jim's Rules of Carry: 1. Any gun is better than no gun. 2. A gun that is reliable is better than a gun that is not. 3. A hole in the right place is better than a hole in the wrong place. 4. A bigger hole is a better hole.
KyJim is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 10:49 AM   #35
JD0x0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2013
Posts: 838
Quote:
to muddy the waters a bit, what of the .40 S&W?
Quote:
LOL! That resolves the debate.
Does it? what about the .357sig? Which is basically a necked down .40 to 9mm. It seems to develop slightly more energy than the .40 and has a higher max case pressure.
JD0x0 is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 05:54 PM   #36
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 1,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyJim
LOL! That resolves the debate.
Nah......just carry a .44Magnum.....it'll blow a man's head clean off....

__________________
Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......
seeker_two is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 06:25 PM   #37
Bluestarlizzard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 254
I didn't watch the videos.

So that qualifies me to enter the discussion.

OM flipping G! You want to get ego on caliber, find the .50 AE guys. >

*ducks and runs for cover*
__________________
Mal: "If anyone gets nosy, just...you know... shoot 'em. "
Zoe: "Shoot 'em?"
Mal: "Politely."
Bluestarlizzard is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 07:03 PM   #38
KyJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 7,582
Quote:
Does it? what about the .357sig?
Just folks with .357 magnum envy.
__________________
Jim's Rules of Carry: 1. Any gun is better than no gun. 2. A gun that is reliable is better than a gun that is not. 3. A hole in the right place is better than a hole in the wrong place. 4. A bigger hole is a better hole.
KyJim is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 07:36 PM   #39
mitranoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2011
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 335
Quote:
Do you really think with modern defensive ammo there is a dimes difference between .45, .40 or 9mm as long as shot placement is good.
Yes, definitely a difference! Being an emergency room physician for several years I can attest. Patients presenting with .22, .380, 9mm GSW's (even with vital shot placement) have a much higher survival rate than those with the larger calibers.
__________________
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

George Washington

Last edited by mitranoc; July 5, 2013 at 07:43 PM.
mitranoc is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 07:45 PM   #40
ricko
Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2013
Posts: 82
Quote:
Quote:
How many of you folks posting (besides Tom Servo) watched the videos?
I really don't think any of them did. And they're arguing nonetheless. It's truly surreal.
Right on both counts - I hadn't watched them, and they're a hoot! Much more entertaining, and somewhat more enlightening, than the discussion thread

: ) =
ricko is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 07:55 PM   #41
EIGHTYDUECE
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 19, 2001
Posts: 416
Mitranoc,

The only way your emergency room experience would be valid would be if they were all modern hollow points, and to only compare those survival results. And to only compare 9mm to .45 acp, which is the topic here.
__________________
"KNEES IN THE BREEZE"

I'm the same fellow as Captain H (found my old password )
EIGHTYDUECE is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 08:04 PM   #42
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 1,945
Regardless of whether people want to argue about it or not, hole size matters. People bleed out. Larger holes hit more blood vessels, have a higher chance of hitting vitals, increase temporary wound cavity size by transferring energy to the wound.

There is another parallel. This is velocity. Velocity causes expansion reliability, increases temporary wound cavity size and causes the non-expanding part of the bullet to penetrate.

The thing that ties these together is bullet design. Bullet design cannot add to diameter and velocity, but it can use them to give you maximum wound creation in a specific target.

So, while a 9mm is fine, a 1200+ fps load with a good bullet will help it get you what you need. Also, it will cause less damage and miss more blood vessels, so aim and shoot again.

A 45 is great too, but don't count on diameter to make misses into hits. Also, it would be wise to limit yourself to loads over 900fps. 800 fps hardball is not better than 9mm hp's. last, don't be afraid to shoot twice. No CCW handgun is powerful enough not to shoot twice.

40 is in between and it is a fine round. It takes the 9mm's length, velocity and pressure and combines it with a little old fashioned diameter. It is probably the best of both worlds for most people.
Nathan is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 08:09 PM   #43
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,360
Quote:
Larger holes hit more blood vessels, have a higher chance of hitting vitals, increase temporary wound cavity size by transferring energy to the wound.
You realize we're talking about hundredths of an inch right?
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is online now  
Old July 5, 2013, 08:52 PM   #44
Ludwig Von Mises
Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2012
Location: Nowhere in particular
Posts: 52
Quote:
You realize we're talking about hundredths of an inch right?
When talking about wound cavity, and hydrostatic shock, those hundredths turn into quarter and half inches. Look at the difference in cavity between a .308 and a .223, much more than 8/100 of an inch difference.
Ludwig Von Mises is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 09:07 PM   #45
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,431
Actually, the difference is fairly substantial. A 9mm is only about 61 percent of the frontal area of a .45 acp.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 09:32 PM   #46
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,360
Nope, I'm no doing it. I'm not getting in a caliber war over a parody video that makes fun of people that get into caliber wars! The heat may be getting to me but I'm not that crazy. Peace
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is online now  
Old July 5, 2013, 09:44 PM   #47
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 1,945
XTP is said to expand ~150%.

.45 = 0.69"
40 = 0.60"
9mm = 0.53"

No matter how you slice it, that is a BIG difference.
Nathan is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 09:53 PM   #48
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 4,360
Quote:
XTP is said to expand ~150%.

.45 = 0.69"
40 = 0.60"
9mm = 0.53"

No matter how you slice it, that is a BIG difference.
Those are low expansion numbers for all calibers.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Sel...icturerev3.jpg

If you want to carry a 45 do it. If you want to carry a 40 do it. If you want to carry a 25 do it.
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Apes with guns kill people! - Robin Williams
TunnelRat is online now  
Old July 6, 2013, 01:51 AM   #49
AZAK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2008
Location: the object towards which the action of the sea is directed
Posts: 2,103
This is why I hand load my own ammo.

Get a big enough case, and you can put both 9mm and .45 auto into it; duck tape and super glue, who knew!

Problem solved.

And about the .40 S&W... all that I can say is 10mm auto.

(In just four sentences, I managed to solve the dilemma and rabbit trail the thread just using bait left by another poster.)
__________________
The lowest paid college major/degree in this country after graduation...
Elementary Education.

Now, go figure...
AZAK is offline  
Old July 6, 2013, 02:06 AM   #50
5.56RifleGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 1,135
I hear that the AF2011 (the double barrel 1911) will be released with one side chambered in 45 ACP and one in 9mm next year, in an effort to end the which is better debate. I have heard a third barrel is being considered also, in an effort to please fans of 40 S&W. The carry model will be compact 4 inches tall 3 inches long and 8 inches wide.
__________________
Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus
5.56RifleGuy is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13508 seconds with 8 queries