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Old July 2, 2013, 08:51 PM   #1
dakota.potts
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Pepper Spray

After our last story about the panhandler I've decided to pick up some pepper spray for my girlfriend and I. She absolutely hates guns but has no problem with pepper spray and after some thinking I think it'll serve me better than a knife.

I think I've made a selection on product: The Fox labs 2 oz (limited by Florida law) flip top cone spray. I'll also buy some training inserts.

I'm a little concerned that this stuff is very hot. I want it to be effective but also concerned about blowback. I wear glasses so I would probably not be as effected by a full frontal blast but from everything I'm reading even the smallest bit is not a pleasant experience. I'm debating the merits of just having someone shoot me with it so I can learn how it feels

Obviously I'll buy some training inserts and we'll run through simple practices like keeping it concealed until you use it, half second bursts, spray and move, things like that.

Is there anything else I should know or look into as far as training?
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Old July 2, 2013, 09:18 PM   #2
allaroundhunter
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Re: Pepper Spray

Half second bursts are not the best way to use pepper spray. You want to hit your aggressor, and keep it spraying in his (or her) face. A quick blast of it will not do as much as getting a face full and then a little more.
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Old July 2, 2013, 09:56 PM   #3
Switchblade
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I am a big fan of Cold Steel Inferno... HOT and EFFECTIVE
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Old July 2, 2013, 09:56 PM   #4
dakota.potts
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Really? What do you recommend? In a 2 oz. bottle you don't get many sprays. Do you prefer to use it all up front and hope you incapacitate faster?

Not sarcasm even though it sounds like it maybe
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Old July 2, 2013, 10:44 PM   #5
allaroundhunter
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Re: Pepper Spray

Here is what I recommend:

http://www.sabrered.com/servlet/the-...NUM-120/Detail


I don't recommend using it all at once, but it is like using a handgun for defense; don't stop using it before the threat stops. And a couple half second shots are easy to miss. If you get a stream going you can guide it in rather than try to aim individual shots.

The pepper spray that I linked contains 20 "shots" so that is a couple seconds of spray.
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Old July 2, 2013, 11:40 PM   #6
ClydeFrog
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2oz or 3oz?...

To my limited knowledge, private citizens in Florida can carry up to 3 fl oz containers of Mace or OC spray.
I plan to buy some Zarc Vexor brand OC(micro-spin format). It's very potent & comes in Mk III & Mk IV sizes.
The new Sabre Green brand looks impressive. It's like Sabre Red but uses the hot Wasabi formula. The firm PR & ads state it cleans up faster than other OC sprays.
I'm using a Mk III size Sabre Red Crossfire(allows rapid deployment from any angle).
Id avoid the foam or goo type OC systems. Many aggressive subjects just fling it back at your face or rub it on you.
Be aware that violent or career criminals either have been sprayed a few times or tasered. They won't be intimidated or concerned about a small blast of OC spray. Be fully ready to deal with the threat if the pepper spray fails.

CF
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Old July 2, 2013, 11:57 PM   #7
allaroundhunter
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Clyde, I just checked FL regulations and it is indeed a 2 oz limit.
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Old July 3, 2013, 12:07 AM   #8
SgtLumpy
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Once you've been sprayed with the stuff, you'll have a new and vivid understanding of the most important caution of using OC - Make sure the wind is at your BACK.

...


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Old July 3, 2013, 02:59 AM   #9
johnelmore
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The thing to know about pepper spray is that it wont stop anyone, but it will distract them. Spray it and then gain a far distance from the subject. Some can fight through it. Use their disorientation to gain distance.

Yes it is very hot. I accidentally discharged a small amount the other day into my hand. After washing several times it was still there and I managed to get a little on my face which didnt go away for.

I keep a few large cans in my home for animal defense as well as people defense. Its also more legal and easier to carry around in some instances then a pistol. It wont stop someone but it will give time to remove yourself from the situation. Spray and run. I would spray and retreat backward quickly.
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Old July 3, 2013, 08:11 AM   #10
flphotog
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That's true, 2 oz limit in FL. However, other states may and are different. I'll be doing a lot of traveling this summer and one state that comes to mind is SC, the limit there is 50 cc which is just over an 1.5 oz. So be careful when you travel.
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Old July 3, 2013, 08:16 AM   #11
deepcreek
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Pepper spray is only a deterrent many people can still grab onto the sprayer after getting sprayed. Certain police and military actually have training sessions where they spray each other and have to preform tasks afterwards.

Also age and cold weather can ruin cans of pepper spray.
I had one in the car for about 8mo and took it out for a vicious dog attacking me. The dog came lunging at me I sprayed and red liquid just ran down my arm..

I escaped and returned next week with a fresh can to find the same vicious dog. Half the can went in his mouth and eyes he was still on the attack but half blind. I had to leave when his trash owner came out in the trash filled yard down the road(I though he might have a rifle).
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Old July 3, 2013, 11:12 AM   #12
ClydeFrog
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Florida Div of Licensing....

Can any TFLers cite the specific Florida law where it limits chemical sprays to only 2 fl ozs? I checked www.mylicensesite.com & only read the FS 720/493 laws saying chemical sprays can be open carry or concealed for self defense.
There are no stated limits on the size or weight of the chemical agent.

PM me if you want.

CF
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Old July 3, 2013, 11:48 AM   #13
spacemanspiff
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Spray is an unpleasant and painful experience if you are expecting it. Can't say I've endured it unexpectedly...
Back when I bounced at a particularly rough bar I would carry it, and often would go through three or four cans a month. We did have to qualify to carry it, which entailed being sprayed and having to put cuffs on someone. Granted, that person wasnt resisting so it really didn't prove anything.

In the OPs situation though, spray as merely defensive won't entail doing anything but retreating.

The great thing about the cone is that the spray will have effect even where you arent directly pointing it. Thats also a bad thing! When you use it, expect contamination. If nothing else, of your clothes. Wash everything after use.
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Old July 3, 2013, 12:00 PM   #14
ClydeFrog
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Sabre Green...

That I'd say is a selling point for Sabre Green. They say the decon rates & recovery are approx 80% faster than other OC brands.

I'm still more impressed by Zarc's hot Vexor line.
NOTE;
Vexor may not be available to all private citizens(LE, military, licensed security, or corrections ONLY).

Botach Tactical claims to sell Zarc/Vexor with 0 taxes/S-H but I haven't ordered it yet.

Check your area's laws or ordinances before you buy/carry any OC sprays.

ClydeFrog
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Old July 3, 2013, 01:40 PM   #15
Glenn E. Meyer
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Remember that sprays lose propellant power. I've found that Fox sprays and others may not function after a year or two.

I've taken them in the back yard and they just dribble after that time span.
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Old July 3, 2013, 02:09 PM   #16
ClydeFrog
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Good point....

GM makes a great point on the topic.
If you choose the OC or pepper spray route, get a training unit or 2 & a full power Mk III or Mk IV size can to really see how the chemical agent will react.
Wind, outdoor temps, humidity, etc CAN cause major effects on defense sprays & systems.

In the hot, humid climate I reside in, I had a Mk III size can of pepper gel agent from www.QMuniforms.com cut out & sputter after a few sprays. This was the mid-summer of 2011.
Training or off-duty T&Es are one thing, I wouldn't want to tangle with a subject strung out on bath salts or crystal meth, then have the OC unit fail.

CF
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Old July 3, 2013, 03:19 PM   #17
JerryM
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I sometimes carry the Fox 2 oz spray. Personally I prefer the foam in spite of some advice to the contrary. I have found too many times when I empty an old can some blows back in my face, and I must be more sensitive than most because it takes very little to have me coughing

I have a friend who, as a police officer, had to spray three toughs at a lake on a holiday. They were drinking, and when my friend attempted to get them orderly they decided to throw him in the lake. As they started toward him he gave each one squirt with OC Foam and each collapsed as if shot. They were helpless for awhile.

I carry foam in my car, and do not want to have to use spray and have it blind me. Foam is not as likely to blow back on me as the Spray.
Everyone does not react the same, but the fact that some hardened criminal does not react does not mean that is not valuable for most confrontations.

So I will continue to use the Fox foam spray. Probably will never need it anyway.

Jerry
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Old July 4, 2013, 01:03 AM   #18
colbad
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You are correct that you are probably more likely to spray somone than shoot them. However, keep in mind that pulling out your pepper spray as a threat, may escalate a situation to where another may be justified to use deadly force against YOU. The use or threat of the spray should not be taken lightly and should be treated as a weapon.

LE must get sprayed for certification before you can carry pepper spray for duty. Point that was being made, 1) confidence that your equipment works and 2) if you get sprayed, they will own you AND your gun. As such, the spray is so disabling (for most) that a threat by someone with pepper spray justifies shooting them first. Having gone through this certification and knowing how my body reacts if sprayed, there is no doubt in my mind what I would do if faced with being peppered.
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Old July 4, 2013, 08:03 AM   #19
Rifleman1776
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I used CS once on an individual. No gun but he was attacking me with his fists. He was drunk and wild, I really had no choice. It stopped him cold and gave me time to call the police. I also keep cans of RAID wasp spray handy around home and when camping. Sends out a long stream and is reportedly wicked stuff. And since it is a bug spray it's presence is not threatening or illegal in places like campgrounds.
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:29 AM   #20
Glenn E. Meyer
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The DOJ analyses find that OC works in about 85 to 90% of usages. That's pretty good - for those who like stopping power analyses. I have the article somewhere.

Folks always focus on the one zombie bike meth cyborg, blah, blah. But it seems a good tool. People have soaked up lots of rounds and stayed in the fight also.
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:35 AM   #21
deepcreek
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Quote:
The DOJ analyses find that OC works in about 85 to 90% of usages. That's pretty good - for those who like stopping power analyses. I have the article somewhere.
DOJ stats are mostly from LE encounters so you also have to factor in the badge. Many people are shut down but the badge, radio, lights and the over power and out numbed psychological effect.

Also LE many times will spray anyone that gets mouthy or "non-complainant" at the drop of a hat, women, elderly etc. While your private citizen deals with violent predators attacking them.
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:36 AM   #22
Glenn E. Meyer
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So do you have other statistics and recommend not carrying it?
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:43 AM   #23
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Quote:
Folks always focus on the one zombie bike meth cyborg, blah, blah. But it seems a good tool.
You're right. But what I focus on, and what I think most people don't focus on enough, is getting sprayed YOURSELF. As others have posted, you get sprayed in copper school to get certified. If anyone thinks being in a shoot/no shoot situation is stressful, imagine adding to that you can't breathe or see and you feel like your face is on fire. There is absolutely nothing you can do to relieve the situation. Your instinct is to rub your eyes and face, which of course, makes it even worse.

I think that most pvt citizens, and even a lot of coppers, placed into the OC situation aren't going to be very aware of the wind/breeze/blowback factor. They might be pretty good at the firearm secondary target factor if using a gun, but there's really no way to practice OC spray very well. It's REALLY easy to spray yourself.

If you've ever chopped Habanero peppers and then accidently touched your eye or nose (or gone to the bathroom...) you've experienced maybe 1/100th of what it's like to have the emulsified mix sprayed onto your face. I've seen cops drop out of the academy because of it.

I would be very un-inclined to give a can to an 18 y/o kid (or anyone) and say "Here, use this if you get attacked".


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Old July 4, 2013, 10:02 AM   #24
ClydeFrog
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Real reality TV....

On the long run of Dog; The Bounty Hunter on A&E TV, there are several events where Dog or one of the team get sprayed or hit with excess OC spray.
"Reality" or "unscripted" TV shows are not always real but those events do seem honest. Small rooms or confined spaces would cause any sprays or irritants to flash back.
This is where the thicker gels can work better(if they don't clog or misfire ).

As brought up in other forum topics, make sure your OC/pepper spray is safe to use with any stun gun(s) or Tasers/EDWs.
There have been documented incidents where a subject was hit with chemical agent then shot with a Taser. The subject was then burned & seriously injured.

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Old July 4, 2013, 06:20 PM   #25
camsdaddy
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Im glad I read this I have been carrying a Sabre Red in my pocket for a year or so. I guess its about time to get a fresh can.
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