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Old July 3, 2013, 07:13 PM   #26
kgpcr
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Frank that's a great post!! Not one of those people mentioned won. NOT ONE!!. They were released or found not guilty but spent all their money to do so. Many lost jobs, houses and everything they had. There is a HUGE difference between winning and being found not guilty. The money spent, emotional stress of wondering if you are going to jail and the disruption of your life just plain and simple make it a no win!!!
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Old July 3, 2013, 08:25 PM   #27
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No, they won, but they had to go through due process to do so. However, the issue is a very real one. We have those that say that they are indeed their brother's keeper, "brother" being a term to mean of their fellow humans, not just family. This is a balancing act for many of us. How do you protect your own family whilst you are in jail for defending someone else?

What are often perceived as clear cases of self defense turn out to be gray areas or something LEOs aren't prepared to handle and then leave it up to the DAs. The classic case from Texas is the first CHL shooting with Gordon Hale who was chased down in a road rage incident, beaten about the head where upon he suffered multiple broken bones in the face and was permanently (partially) blinded in one eye when the attacker broke off the attack. The attacker, who outweighed Hale by something like 70 or 80 lbs, decided he wasn't done and returned to vent more rage. Hale shot him once. Sure enough, nobody wanted to give Hale a pass on the shooting as it was the first CHL shooting DESPITE Hale's shooting meeting all the necessary requirements for it to be justified. He was the victim. He suffered grave bodily injury. He feared for his life. He didn't resort to his gun first. He did not shoot maliciously or after the fact. As he was trapped in traffic and trapped inside of his vehicle (he was beaten through the open window), he could not retreat, but he got charged anyway. Probably the biggest problem with the whole incident was that his attacker was not armed with any sort of weapon other than his fists. Hale shot "an unarmed man." He was acquitted.

I saw an interview with Hale after the trial. I think he is the only person I have ever heard say afterwards that he would have rather been beaten to death than to go through what he went through. At the time, while he would be allowed to recover his CHL, he had no plans to do so. He was that disgusted with the whole process. I never saw another interview with him and have no idea if he actually gave up his CHL for good or not, but that had been his plan.
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Old July 3, 2013, 09:58 PM   #28
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Having been an armed security officer and police officer for over 30 years combined I have used my weapon in order to effect an arrest more than once. I can say it is absolutely not as easy as it looks on TV. Even detaining someone at gunpoint is not as easy as it sounds. There are many things going on at once and you need to have a clear head in order to keep track of everything. Did you see the watchout who could come from behind and harm you? Did you see a knife or a screwdriver. I know a screwdriver can be as dangerous as a knife but a jury may not think so. My advice is to call the police and let them deal with the guys. Unless they try to get into your home, in your condition there is no need to confront them. I hate to say it but insurance should be able to care of the truck.
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Old July 3, 2013, 10:26 PM   #29
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Double
I am NOT saying that one should never shoot. Not saying that at all. what I am saying is your problems don't end there. They are just beginning but you are alive. If there is ANY way to avoid a shooting one should take it. Like one guy said" shooting some one in self defense does not solve all your problems. It just changes them however you are alive to deal with them" that was very well said. Personally I will do what ever I can to avoid a shooting but if I have to I will.
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Old July 3, 2013, 11:50 PM   #30
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In the mid 80's, my truck was parked on the street at night with all my work tools in the back (camper shell). It had been broken into befor and the thiefs broke a window, stole a briefcase and ran off. I heard noise and looked out and saw someone in the back of my truck unloading toolboxes. I jumped up and grabed my shotgun and came around the side of the house and put the shotgun aginst the back of the bg's head and said "you have three choices, I kill you right now, I set this shotgun down and we fight, winner keeps the tools, or you go in the house and call the sheriff and beg him to come arrest you befor I kill you." The kid headed to the house, the other one got out of the back of my truck and grabbed the barrel of my shotgun. Instead of pulling the trigger I put the safety on. I was in one hell of a fight befor my wife came out and hit one guy with a rake and my neighbor took on the other.
The kids, one was 20 the other was just short of 18 admitted breaking a window to get into my truck and stealing my briefcase befor and trying to steal my tools again this time, went to jail. It all cost me a couple of weeks lost work and buisness, maby $10,000 attorny fees, thier parents sued, I won.
I can not imanage the cost and hassel if I had pulled the trigger and killed one of them, let alone having to live with killing someone over anger and a few stolen tools.
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Old July 4, 2013, 12:47 AM   #31
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Now had I caaught them all I could justifilably do is hold them at gunpoint till the police got there.
its my understanding that you cannot detain someone at gunpoint only the law can. The only difference is the officer is required by law to intervien, but a civilian is not..... and once the threat to you is over you cannot point the gun.
then on the flipside, if you can physically detain them then you can as a citizen place them under citizens arrest forceably until police arrive.

correct me if I am wrong....
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Old July 4, 2013, 07:11 AM   #32
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Quote:
its my understanding that you cannot detain someone at gunpoint only the law can.
Citations?
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Old July 4, 2013, 08:27 AM   #33
Al Thompson
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its my understanding that you cannot detain someone at gunpoint only the law can
Completely dependent on local laws. Perhaps not in Oregon, absolutely not true in South Carolina.
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:10 AM   #34
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I knew of someone that woke up to noise looked out and someone was cutting a hole in their convertible top car. They went out with a 1911 told them to "stop" they robber had a knife tried to escape. The car owner shot him in the leg told him to sit down and wait for the police.

The car owner was arrested for attempted murder and a small collection of felonies. He took it to jury trail and won.

The car owner won but I am sure it cost him and gave him some grey hairs.
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:16 AM   #35
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put the shotgun aginst the back of the bg's head and said "you have three choices, I kill you right now, I set this shotgun down and we fight, winner keeps the tools, or you go in the house and call the sheriff and beg him to come arrest you befor I kill you."
You're very fortunate. In many jurisdictions, a claim of self-defense under those circumstances would have failed, and you'd have been subject to felony charges.

While it is legal to hold someone at gunpoint, or to effect a citizen's arrest, in many places, it's very unwise. Massad Ayoob wrote a very good essay on the pitfalls of the practice called the Dangerous Myth of the Citizen's Arrest. It's in the book In the Gravest Extreme.
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:40 AM   #36
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepcreek
...The car owner was arrested for attempted murder and a small collection of felonies. He took it to jury trail and won.

The car owner won but I am sure it cost him and gave him some grey hairs.
One can expect that the legal fees and costs of defense through a jury trial will run, depending on the complexity of the case and prevailing legal rates, from $50,000 to $150,000. That would buy a pretty nice car, let alone a new convertible top.
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:57 AM   #37
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...costs of defense through a jury trial will run, depending on the complexity of the case and prevailing legal rates, from $50,000 to $150,000. That would buy a pretty nice car, let alone a new convertible top.
This is an excellent "bottom line" to keep in mind while training (not to try and remember in the heat of the moment). There is virtually no physical object that anyone can steal from you that is worth more in monetary terms than the cost of your defense.

And the bigger picture, which most will hopefully never be forced to realize, is that there is NO emotional and psychological exoneration from ending someone's life, no matter how bad the bad guy was. Extreme case, like Charles Manson was stabbing your pregnant daughter...You'd STILL face the emotional realization that you killed a human, every waking and sleeping moment, for the rest of your life. Much more typical case, you kill a guy for stealing your belt sander or your Toyota. Now that emotional brick wall just plain kicks your butt. "I killed a guy because he took my $50 belt sander" or "I killed a guy because he took my car which I had insured".

I'm never recommending to not defend yourself. I'm always recommending to fight really hard to try and NOT put yourself into a situation where you have to face the emotional monster of having killed another human.


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Old July 4, 2013, 10:51 AM   #38
Glenn E. Meyer
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The police literature is clear on the emotional/psychological aftermaths of even a 'good shoot'.

Two good reads for the civilian are

Into the Kill Zone by Klinger

Deadly Force Encounters
- Artwohl

Our research found that a good proportion of police officers think that even after a good shoot, they will have significant psychological consequences.

If the bad guys run away - best outcome.
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Old July 4, 2013, 11:28 AM   #39
kgpcr
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OK you pull on a guy breaking into your car and tell him to get on the ground. He tells you to pound sand. Now what?? Its not as simple as it sounds. Pulling a weapon is a very serious thing.
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Old July 4, 2013, 11:34 AM   #40
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Completely dependent on local laws. Perhaps not in Oregon, absolutely not true in South Carolina.
Fascinating....
So what happens if your holding someone at gunpoint, and they turn around and walk (or run) away?




Double Naught Spy, sorry no citations this time. I should have, but I did say its my understanding... I wasn't stating a fact.
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Old July 4, 2013, 11:39 AM   #41
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Modern states do not allow the use of deadly force to defend chattel (personal property). This would include New York and California. Other states with laws closer to the common law allow it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Nevada allows for deadly force to retake chattel.

Quote:
OK you pull on a guy breaking into your car and tell him to get on the ground. He tells you to pound sand. Now what?? Its not as simple as it sounds. Pulling a weapon is a very serious thing.
Given the above scenario, in a modern state like California or New York you cannot use deadly force. Now, if the suspect told you to pound sand and then approached in a manner a reasonably prudent person would interpret as threatening to life and body, then it becomes a matter of self-defense.

However, if the suspect says, "pound sand," and then walks away, in the more modern states, the best you can do is take pictures, call 9-11 and hope the popo captures the miscreants.
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Old July 4, 2013, 12:21 PM   #42
Glenn E. Meyer
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Did an interesting FOF with Steve Moses once and a variant at the NTI.

With Steve, you went into the dwelling and find two burglars. With your firearm you challenge them. One decides (simulated) to urinate on your couch.
That was to see if you were outraged enough to shoot him.

Another walked slowly towards you with hands up and saying he doesn't understand English (in Spanish - which you might understand).

Would you shoot the guy as he came close? Should you just flee your house?

At the NTI, you find a guy vandalizing your car - you challenge and then he urinates in the gas tank (no lock). What to do?

Preferred solution in both - get out of Dodge and call the law.
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Old July 4, 2013, 12:48 PM   #43
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So what happens if your holding someone at gunpoint, and they turn around and walk (or run) away?
In some jurisdictions, but not in all, if you have just witnessed their commission of an extremely heinous crime of violence, and if their departure would create an immediate and very serious risk to others, and if you have no other way to stop them, you might be justified in doing something about it.

Othersise, no.

In some places, you must have been requested by a sworn officer to stop the man. You had better be able to prove it.

But suppose the perp does stay? Your risk may be just beginning.
  • You are liable for whatever harm or illness may befall him while you are detaining him or as a result of your having done so, and you are not indemnified by the community;
  • your having held him may later be judged unlawful;
  • and/or, you may be ambushed by an accomplice while you are preoccupied with him.

And, of course, he may somehow get the upper hand and kill you. Massad relates the story of how that happened to an FBI agent.

Not for me, thanks.
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Old July 4, 2013, 12:48 PM   #44
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Glenn, can you clarify that the first scenario (with Steve...) was simulating a home invasion?
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Old July 4, 2013, 12:54 PM   #45
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Nevada allows for deadly force to retake chattel.
To my knowledge, there is no general right to defense of chattel in Nevada. There is, however, a refutable assumption that if someone is in or attempting to force entry to your residence(interesting side note: the statute includes semi-trailers if you happen to live in one), is there to do you harm, and the statute does cover burglary. Although I do not think it has been tested in the form of burglar carrying a tv(or something) inside a house but making their way out and being shot. The statute specifies in the residence, case law indicates that the act of forcing entry can be construed as the same.

NRS 41.095
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Old July 4, 2013, 12:57 PM   #46
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Excellent reply Oldmarksman, that is in line with my understanding of the topic.
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Old July 4, 2013, 01:10 PM   #47
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Steve - scenario.

You came home and entered your house. As went into into the living room which was immediately visible from the door, you saw two guys. They were towards the back of the room and a decent distance away from you. You had a gun (blue gun, IIRC) - that's it.

What to do?

When you challenge them - one pees on the couch, grinning at you and the other slowly approaches with hands up, saying he doesn't speak English. So he doesn't respond to commands but keeps on coming. You have the door to your back - so you could flee.

The idea of the urination was to so outrage you that you didn't just run. I didn't think about it then, but maybe it was to see if another male was marking your turf - you would bark at him.

I didn't flee - I told them that I called the police on my cell (which I didn't have) and they should cease and behave. They didn't. As the bad guy who was approaching got to close - approaching a leveled gun - I 'shot' him.

Analysis: Could have fled. Shooting the gun before he got to close was ok. One instructor said that I didn't have a phone so what was that about. I said - they don't know that. I lied to hustle them out.

The fun in the scenario is that we are assuming that with the gun, we have the staff of power and all will obey. Not so.

Interesting choice - which makes the wife happiest? Urinated on couch or blood soaked couch and rug? Guess I'm buying a new couch and carpet.

One after shooting fact, in some cases the family won't stay in the house and will pressure you to move.
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Old July 4, 2013, 01:11 PM   #48
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I can only speak to Florida on this
we have 2 particular laws that apply here
1. Castle Doctrine which states I can use deadly force to protect my home and possessions. This is further extended to my vehicle ie in a parking lot etc I can defend it and myself with deadly force legally.

I would never fire a WARNING SHOT, as this will inevitably be used against you later. At the very least you will be charged with reckless discharge of a firearm, if not worse. IF you pull your weapon it should only be to kill. Otherwise leave it holstered. You and you alone have to make that decision at the moment it occurs. The rest is conjecture. Can you take a life? Of course you can, will you? That is the real rub here isn't it?

Last edited by Frank Ettin; July 4, 2013 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Delete Zimmerman reference
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Old July 4, 2013, 01:15 PM   #49
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Someone might as well be me will comment that you don't pull the weapon to kill. You pull the weapon to stop the BG from doing whatever the law allows you to use 'potentially' lethal force. But your goal is to stop, not kill.

It is assumed that the instrument used is potentially lethal and that is allowed by the appropriate law and that is an unfortunate and perhaps probable side effect of using that instrument.

There is a term for that - which I forget. Got it somewhere in a book.
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Old July 4, 2013, 01:28 PM   #50
Koda94
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Glen,I cant help but critique the analysis of your outcome.Where would you have fleed to?

I dont agree withshooting to kill, but I suspect dave9969's comment of the Castle law might come into play here.

Dave9969, in my state the castle doctrine only applies to your car if you are residing in it....
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