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Old July 2, 2013, 02:22 PM   #1
ZVP
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Don't ya just love the Movies?

I was watching"Open Range" and where DuValle shoots a guy with hia 12 ga, he literally blows him off his feet and about 10 ft back against a building!
I wish they'd just show it like it is! Shotguns are destructive enough in real life and besides if it kicked like that on the recieveing end, it'd kick like that on the "Holding end"...
Yea they tied a rope to the Bad Guy and jerked him off his feet!
Ah the Movies, ya gotta love em!

BPDave
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Old July 2, 2013, 03:11 PM   #2
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I loved that movie. I know parts were rather silly(especially the shot guns) but it was fairly realistic for a Hollywood movie. I have heard Kostner was vocal about keeping the gun play scenes realistic but they still got away with alot. At least they did reload quite a bit.
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Old July 3, 2013, 09:38 AM   #3
PetahW
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.

Well........... A few years ago, I watched my Son (then about 35 y.o.) shoot a Whitetail with his 12ga Rem 11-87 slug gun.

The deer was slammed sideways for about 8', before hitting the ground - but the range was fairly close (about 10yds).

IIRC, he used Remington Copper Solid slugs.

We were taking a morning tea break together, sitting/talking softly in whispers, and the buck just came trotting by - I guess it wasn't just his day. .



.

.
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Old July 3, 2013, 10:12 AM   #4
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if you catch both barrels of probably 00 or close to that, I don't think you are going to simply be standing there.

shotguns spread their impact over a lot of time and lots of area. that is what makes them effective
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Old July 3, 2013, 10:39 AM   #5
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Quote:
PetahW posted
The deer was slammed sideways for about 8', before hitting the ground - but the range was fairly close (about 10yds).
The slug didn't cause the deer to slam 8 feet sideways, that had to have been the deer reacting to being shot and skittering sideways on its own.

There's not anywhere near enough energy transferred by even a 12 ga. slug to knock a deer even a few feet, let alone eight feet.
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Old July 3, 2013, 11:39 AM   #6
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it is because there is not enough energy being transferred all at once. I have shot 15 or 20 lb steel targets with my 45-100 using black powder and it picked it up, threw it 4 ft backwards and imbedded it into a piece of plywood (hit edge wise). The difference was in overcoming the tendency of the target not wanting to move, all the energy was dumped at once.

A deer gives, a man gives. If either was hard, the reaction would be different.
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Old July 3, 2013, 12:19 PM   #7
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Even if people or deer didn't give, it's all about mass; most deer and people weigh a lot more than 15 - 20 pounds.

The way to test this is to see how far people move back when they're shot wearing bulletproof vests, that way 100% of the energy is transferred immediately. There's a classic video of the owner of Second Chance getting shot in the chest with a .308 rifle while wearing one of his vests. He's standing on one foot and he doesn't even fall back enough to need to put his other foot down.

Most .308 loads make between 2600 and 2800 foot-pounds of energy. Shotgun slug loads run anywhere between 2000 and 3000 foot-pounds of energy. If a .308 isn't enough to knock a man over while wearing a bulletproof vest and standing on one foot, a shotgun slug isn't going to do much more.
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Old July 3, 2013, 01:55 PM   #8
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If a shotgun, or any other firearm, could blow a man back like that, the recoil would blow you back the same amount.
It's that thing about "Opposite but equal reactions".

Another good movie shotgun scene is where a 12 gauge shotgun load of 9 pellets of 00 buck shot will blow out a 10 foot wide plate glass window from a few feet away.
Also movie shotguns make a dull "BOOM" sound.
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Old July 3, 2013, 03:46 PM   #9
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You got it all wrong. That wasn't buckshot knocking that guy backwards. That was Robert Duvals glare hitting him just before the shot charge got there.

It works even through clapboard walls.
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Old July 3, 2013, 04:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theohazard
Quote:
PetahW posted:
The deer was slammed sideways for about 8', before hitting the ground - but the range was fairly close (about 10yds).
The slug didn't cause the deer to slam 8 feet sideways, that had to have been the deer reacting to being shot and skittering sideways on its own.

There's not anywhere near enough energy transferred by even a 12 ga. slug to knock a deer even a few feet, let alone eight feet.


And you were hiding & watching, WHERE ?

Oh, wait...... never mind - I forgot, you didn't need to be there, 'cause U already know everything there is to know about it. Sorry.



.
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Old July 3, 2013, 04:59 PM   #11
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I agree with "equal and opposite reaction". It might appear that an animal is knocked over, but like the guy said, it was just a reaction to the shot. Any shot that would "knock" a deer sized animal over would do the same thing to the shooter...simple science.
I was also amazed at Cosner fanning off 11 shots from his colt saa. Nice scene, but they do stretch things a little here and there.
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Old July 3, 2013, 05:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
PetahW posted
And you were hiding & watching, WHERE ?

Oh, wait...... never mind - I forgot, you didn't need to be there, 'cause U already know everything there is to know about it. Sorry.
You're right, I wasn't there. All I know is what happened in your story is physically impossible.

I looked up the muzzle energy of 3" 12 ga. Remington Copper Solid slugs; it's 2331 foot-pounds of energy. If a .308 round producing 2600 - 2800 foot-pounds of energy isn't enough to even unbalance a man standing on one foot, how would 2331 foot-pounds be enough to knock a deer 8 feet?

I apologize if I offended you; that definitely wasn't my intention. I'm sure it looked like the deer was knocked 8 feet sideways, but it must have happened some other way, which is why I suggested it might have been the deer's reaction to being shot. I wasn't there and I don't know what caused it to slam sideways 8 feet, but I know it wasn't the slug because that's not possible.
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Old July 4, 2013, 11:32 PM   #13
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If someone pokes you in the butt with a pin, you jump in the air and react.
It is not the speed or force of the pin that knocks you in the air, it is what your nervous system and muscles do because of being poked with the pin.

Getting shot is a TREMENDOUS shock to the nervous system, consequently, bodies do strange things when hit..

I have never really paid much attention to the "muzzle energy" numbers. As it is a Theoretical number anyway.

The ft lbs of RECOIL generated by a 12 gauge is ballpark at 32ft. Lbs.
so there can be no more than that imparted to the target.

Example:
If a .460 weatherby generates over 8000 lbs of "energy", and you shot say a compact car (2100 lbs,) in the engine and the round stops in the engine, all the energy is transferred to the target, shouldn't the car be moved several feet?

In the real world they are just theoretical numbers..

45 Bravo
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Old July 5, 2013, 12:22 AM   #14
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Any shot that would "knock" a deer sized animal over would do the same thing to the shooter...simple science.
I am astounded by the number of science teachers we have on this forum.

And the wise ancients that spew facts at the drop of a hat.

We must sit in a circle and listen to our elders tell us how they hunted down the wild beasts of the west with a single arrow at 500 yards and how they brought in that 50 lbs salmon with their bare hands. And in respect we sit there and listen in silence while all the time thinking "What a Crock".

If I remember correctly the first vest tests was done with a 38 Spl not a 308. A 308 will go straight through a bullet proof vest, and that would not have been too nice for the shooter, now would it.

And since when does a 180 grain 308 bullet have the same mass as a 1 oz. 12 gauge Forster Slug? If you hit a man with your bicycle at 5 miles an hour, how far will he be thrown 3 to 5 feet, if you hit a man with your car at 5 miles an hour how far will HE be thrown? 5 to 10 feet? For all you science teachers out there it is the mass that makes the difference.

Now I don't know if the deer jumped 8 feet sideways or if the slug had enough energy to throw him sideways, or if a stunt double was pulling a rope on the deer.

But it does make for a good campfire story.
Jim
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Old July 5, 2013, 12:48 AM   #15
.45 COLT
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I'm ancient, not particularly wise, and it's late and it's been a long time since I cracked a physics book, but ---------- by my admittedly rough calculations, a 1 ounce slug hitting a 125 pound deer at 1,500 FPS would start the deer moving about 9 inches per second, a barely noticeable shift.

Nobody can accurately predict reaction to being shot. I've seen a heart-shot deer go straight up and land running, others drop in place. A deer seemingly "thrown" sideways by 10 feet wouldn't be a rarity.

DC
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Old July 5, 2013, 01:19 AM   #16
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Quote:
Jim243 posted
If I remember correctly the first vest tests was done with a 38 Spl not a 308. A 308 will go straight through a bullet proof vest, and that would not have been too nice for the shooter, now would it.
A .308 will go through most bullet proof vests, but not all; there are plenty of them that will stop a .308. In the video I'm referencing he's obviously wearing a vest that will stop a .308.

Quote:
Jim243 posted
And since when does a 180 grain 308 bullet have the same mass as a 1 oz. 12 gauge Forster Slug?
I never said it did. But mass alone is not the issue here; energy is what actually matters, and energy is a product of both mass and velocity. The slug in question has more mass than a 180 grain .308 round, but it's moving more slowly; slow enough that it actually has less energy than a .308 round.

Considering it's energy that is required to move an object, and the .308 didn't have enough to knock a man off ONE foot even when ALL of it was transferred at once due to the bulletproof vest, how the heck could a shotgun slug with LESS energy knock a deer 8 feet?

Saying a deer was knocked 8 feet sideways by a 12 ga. slug is kind of like saying a man will do somersaults when hit in the pinky by a .45 ACP; you're welcome to make outrageous claims about mythical "knockdown power", but you shouldn't be surprised when someone calls you out on it.
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Old July 5, 2013, 03:24 AM   #17
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In '63, I went to Base Op to get a cup of coffee. I saw a couple of buddies sitting around a table, so I walked over to join them. Just before I got there, one of them leveled a pistol at my chest and pulled the trigger. I flew back about 3 feet, bounced over another table and landed on the floor, for a total of about 8 or 9 feet. I then jumped up and charge the guy, but before I could get to him my other buddies were able to tackle me, and stopped me from killing him. Everybody was laughing (hard), because the guy had shot me with a starter pistol load with 22 blanks.

So when you hear stories about people, or animals flying all over the place after being shot, I believe it.

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Old July 5, 2013, 05:47 AM   #18
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I remember the video with the guy getting shot with the .308 while standing on one foot. If I remember, he put a steel plate under the vest to keep himself from getting really bruised, but the vest stopped the bullet. He did the same thing, holding a .44 S&W himself and put a big phone book under the vest to avoid bruising. In neither instance was he moved backwards by the impact of the rounds.
It has been a long time ago that I watched that, but I think the fellow that was demonstrating this had developed the Second Chance vests and was promoting them.
There was also a fellow interviewed that took an errant bolt from a .50 cal rifle completely through his midsection and said it didn't knock him over either. He survived to shoot another day.
Sometimes what we see as reactions in game after being shot can be very deceiving. I've seen deer jump probably 3 feet in the air after the bullet impacted, but just figured it to be a reaction. While none of us want to be called to task about our observations, and some might even get a little testy over it, if we take the time to consider all the options we might get a little better perspective and learn from it all.
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Old July 5, 2013, 06:43 AM   #19
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The only thing you can say with any certainty about bullets and bullet wounds is that they are totally unpredictable!
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Old July 5, 2013, 05:22 PM   #20
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Short barrel shotguns....

I like the action films & scenes were a "good guy" totes a cut-down shotgun or "sawed off" double barrel 12ga that strangely doesn't seem to have any recoil, blast or muzzle flash, .
These "room brooms" can also blow up vehicles with only 1 hit, cause bad guys to fly up & thru windows or walls, or blow them up/blow them apart.
See The Hitman(1991), LoneWolf MacQuade(1983), Hard Target(1994), Miami Vice(1983-1989), Wanted: Dead or Alive(1986).

Note; The cool Browning A-5 12ga semi auto shotgun, Texas Ranger JJ MacQuade(Chuck Norris) waves around is a short barrel version.

www.imfdb.org
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Old July 6, 2013, 11:52 AM   #21
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While I agree that the slug couldn't have shoved the deer 8 feet without also shoving the shooter back equally...

I will say that a .308 bullet hitting with the same "energy" as a .74 inch slug may not pose the same impact motion since it has all of the energy dumped in a tiny hole with much being expended by the very tip of the bullet hitting the animal while a slug is nearly a square inch of impact area thus, it is with more "push" imho...

Brent
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Old July 6, 2013, 12:19 PM   #22
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I agree completely. But my example included the .308 being fired at a bulletproof vest, which transfers ALL the energy at once over a much larger area compared to a slug hitting a deer.
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Old July 6, 2013, 01:57 PM   #23
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But the vest isn't just impenetrable... it is the act of dissipating the energy that makes it work even though it is pliable... Now a more accurate thing to look at would be if a guy wore an impenetrable plate of steel... Now that would be more "instantly" dumping the energy...

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Old July 6, 2013, 02:59 PM   #24
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True. Though I think in the video he might have put a steel plate behind the vest. Another poster mentioned that, but I haven't seen the video in a while so I can't remember.
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:04 AM   #25
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My family is big into muzzleloaders. A few years back my dad was on a hunt and spooked a buck above us on the hill side about 15 feet away. The buck jumped right twards us. He fired one of our 900gn bullets out of his .62 cal at about 10 feet. The deer flipped over backwards and landed on his back right where he jumped from.

This was the single best example of energy transfer I've ever seen. I didn't belive my eyes and I know two people that have kill the big five with this bullet. Just WOW.

So... it can happen. I've seen it.


Boomer


Oh... I forgot. That 900gner kicks you just as hard
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