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Old July 6, 2013, 09:27 AM   #26
couldbeanyone
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Ozzieman, not too sure what you are talking about here, as I have never known of a Marlin 1894 being chambered in 45/70. Also, what does a Ruger falling block action have to do with anything?
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Old July 6, 2013, 09:38 AM   #27
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Because it was said during the thread that
The Marlin 1894 is a stronger gun than a Ruger single action
I was just wondering if this held true for the 95 vs the Ruger single action.
Just trying to learn here.
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Old July 6, 2013, 09:41 AM   #28
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Ozzieman, thanks, now I understand. The single action referred to earlier was the Super Blackhawk single action revolver, not the single shot no.1 and no.3 falling block rifles. By the way, the Ruger number 1 falling block is well known as an immensely strong action.
Also, i am not sure that an 1894 Marlin is stronger than a Super Blackhawk. But, it is all a moot point if you just stick with standard saami approved loads.
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Old July 6, 2013, 11:42 AM   #29
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couldbeanyone, you’re probably right but I thought we were talking about rifles throughout this. I wasn’t sure they made the #1 in that caliber but I know they did in the #3, its one of those guns that I wish I had never let go.
Thank you for straightening that out.
Also had one in 45-70, most painful gun I ever owned
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Old July 6, 2013, 11:45 AM   #30
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In my opinion: The ruger 77/44 has a stronger action then the marlin. That assumption is based on several talks with gunsmiths (i planed on buying one a few years ago) and on 10 years of experience as an engineer. you just have to look at the chambers of a 77/44 and a marlin 1894, a blind man could tell you which on has the stronger action. If you dont believe me, ask your local gunsmith, he`ll tell you.
Of course you should never use over the top loads in any firearm.

Well sadly, there are alway some guys out there who love their lever action rifles so much they just cant admit that their chambers are pretty weak.

i never thought that i would ever have to explain the fact that a bolt action is stronger then a lever action to someone on a gun forum....
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Old July 6, 2013, 12:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
Also, i am not sure that an 1894 Marlin is stronger than a Super Blackhawk.
It is, you can safely exceed "Ruger only" 32,000psi loads in the Marlin. The 1892 can take another 10,000psi over the Marlin.


Quote:
I was wondering if you could explain to me in simple terms so that I can understand why the Marlin is so much stronger than the Ruger 4477.
Nobody here ever said that. You need to cool your jets and actually read what has been posted. I'm not saying the Ruger is stronger or weaker. All I'm saying is that WE DO NOT KNOW!!!


Quote:
That assumption is based on several talks with gunsmiths...
Unless that gunsmith has had a particular firearm tested to destruction, his assumption is no better than anyone else's and it's still a guess. The bottom line, once again, is that WE DO NOT KNOW how strong the Ruger is. We don't. We can guess all day long but if my safety is at stake, I'm not trusting the best guess of anonymous people on the internet.


Quote:
i never thought that i would ever have to explain the fact that a bolt action is stronger then a lever action to someone on a gun forum....
I never thought that I would have to explain how stupid it is to ass-u-me one firearm is stronger than another just because it's of a particular design. Particularly when we're talking about a firearm designed for THE .22LR that has been adapted to the .44Mag. Your assumption is based on simplified logic and I already gave you several examples of boltguns that were not as strong as some leverguns.


Quote:
Well sadly, there are alway some guys out there who love their lever action rifles so much they just cant admit that their chambers are pretty weak.
That has nothing to do with it.


FACT: The Marlin 1894 gets converted to .475Linebaugh and that is not only a larger cartridge but one rated at 50,000psi. No such work has ever been done on the Ruger 77/44. To my knowledge, no one has tested them to destruction and published the results. So based on what we KNOW, the only SAFE assumption is that the 77/44 is safe for its chambering only when loaded to SAAMI pressure standards.
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Old July 6, 2013, 12:19 PM   #32
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Ozzieman...I think you might have inadvertently mistaken the statement about the Ruger single action to mean the Ruger single shots. Please forgive me if I am mistaken.
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Old July 6, 2013, 02:22 PM   #33
couldbeanyone
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TheBear, you do of course realize that there is a difference between a guns chamber and its action. The chamber of a gun can be massively strong as far as the ring of steel around the chamber is concerned and still have a weak action if what is holding the bolt shut is weak.
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Old July 6, 2013, 06:47 PM   #34
Ozzieman
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I grant that you’re the expert here since you have talked great length with Mic McPherson but I don’t need to cool my jets I’m perfectly calm, I’m just trying to learn from the expert.
The Ruger has a bigger bolt, the Ruger has a larger receiver at the barrel, the Ruger has a larger barrel at the port, the Ruger has more and larger locks, and the Ruger has a recessed bolt that completely covers the base of the round.
To me that says the Ruger IS a stronger gun, when compared to an 1894 Marlin chambered in 44 magnum. That’s all. If I’m wrong then I’m wrong and I apologies for being wrong. But I’m trying to learn. But I thought that along with the super redhawk size is everything.

I never thought that I would have to explain how stupid it is to ass-u-me one
Sir I think you’re the one that needs to cool down this is just a gun forum.
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Old July 6, 2013, 06:56 PM   #35
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While I am interested in the topic, I very much dislike the tone of at least one of the posters...
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Old July 6, 2013, 11:08 PM   #36
newfrontier45
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Look guys, if the 77/44 was based on the regular 77MKII centerfire action, there would be no room for discussion. For it is built in much larger and higher pressure cartridges than the .44Mag. It is not, it is built on a rimfire action and the chambering in question is the largest available. We can sit here and speculate all day long but in the end, it's all just mental masturbation. I'm not an expert, I'm just stating the obvious and that is, we simply do not know. I don't know how to be any more clear than that.


Quote:
Sir I think you’re the one that needs to cool down this is just a gun forum.
We can respectfully disagree all day long and that is fine. However, tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about or condescend me in any way and my blood boils. I have way too much of my life invested to stand for that foolishness. I can be argued with without losing my cool but I will not be talked down to. Which is exactly what TheBear is doing and IMHO, doing so out of ignorance. It is STUPID to assume t hat the 77/44 is stronger than the Marlin because as was suggested, it implies that somebody wants to load it "hot". If you guys want to ass-u-me that the rifle is safe for 50,000psi loads, knock yourselves out and report back. I have no issues whatsoever pushing guns of KNOWN strength beyond SAAMI pressure standards but that's a critical stipulation I just bolded and underlined.
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Old July 7, 2013, 10:08 AM   #37
couldbeanyone
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It amazes me that people continue to go on and on about how big the Rugers bolt is, what big and numerous bolt lugs it has. It seems to me that anyone could see that the Ruger action, not bolt, would likely be stronger if the bolt was smaller in diameter. If the bolt was smaller, the right hand receiver rail could then be thicker.
The bolt is very likely amply strong, what is very much in question is the strength of the action holding that bolt closed, especially the right hand receiver rail where it is at its smallest. I want to know how the forces flow through this weak area, I want to know if there are any sharp edges creating stress risers. We need to know if there are any bending moments being applied to the receiver when it is put under tension when fired.
But, no, lets continue to moan about how big and beefy the bolt is instead. But, what do I know, I'm just trying to learn here. Yea, right.
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Old July 7, 2013, 11:09 AM   #38
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As far as I'm concerned it's all just uneducated guessing. No doubt influenced by Ruger's marketing and the ubiquitous "Rugers are built like a tank" nonsense. There is too little information present and too little expertise to analyze it. If the exact same rifle, made of the same alloys and with the same heat treatment was also available in the .454 or .480Ruger, I'd say yes, the 77/44 is stronger than the Marlin.

Either way, there is no reason for it at all. Even if you use the available 50,000psi data (Redhawk/FA), you're not going to gain 400fps and make it a 200yd gun. You can't load the long nose heavyweight cast bullets in the magazine, so what difference does it make?
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:09 PM   #39
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Couldbeanyone your right about the bolt and size. I just felt (uneducated guess here) since everything about the Marlin is smaller that therefore it would be weaker.
But in cases like the 629 VS the Ruger Redhawk there is no argument which is stronger, the larger of the two. Both will handle max pressure but which will take it longer? It’s why they call it Ruger loads.
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:12 PM   #40
Ozzieman
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45 you really need to get off your high horse, at no time did anyone say anything about making 50K rounds. All that was said by me was that it was ok to take the gun to book max that was all.
I never said the gun was capable of taking 50K loads not once. But I said and will continue to say that the Ruger is stronger than the Marlin in my opinion.
We can respectfully disagree all day long and that is fine. However, tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about or condescend me in any way and my blood boils.
This comment is laughable to the point of being silly, you really need to look at a mirror when you say that.
You want to be treated with respect and not be talked down to. Sir I can totally agree with that and if you feel that I have toward you I apologize
BUT you might want to read the following, your words sir, with all due respect you could take a lesson from your own words.

I would have to explain how stupid it is to
Because it sounds like dangerous assumptions and wishful thinking to me
we would have a lot more to base an educated guess on.
As I suspected, you're making assumptions and apparently uneducated guesses.
That's a very simplistic, dangerous and inaccurate generalization
The fact that I have to tell you this says a lot about your firearms knowledge.
You are certainly free to assume whatever you want but if you state your unsubstantiated opinion as fact, you will be called on it.
You might consider for a moment that some folks actually know a thing or two about this stuff, rather than assuming it's wrong because it conflicts with your perception of reality.
I never thought that I would have to explain how stupid it is to ass-u-me one firearm is stronger than another just because it's of a particular design.
Your assumption is based on simplified logic
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Old July 7, 2013, 03:38 PM   #41
couldbeanyone
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Ozzieman, I FEEL that you could be right about the Ruger being stronger. In my personal opinion, I don't find the Marlin 1894 action design to be particularly inspired or strong. I neither own or desire one. That being said, the 1894 has been tested to destruction and we KNOW where the limit is on it.
If the Ruger was a front locking lug action I would have no doubt that it would be stronger. But, although the Ruger basically looks like a Mauser 98, it is a rear locking lug action. The bolt area is very open creating the possibility of weakness and flex in this area. Compare the bolt area opening of the Ruger, to a modern rear locking lug acton designed for high pressures, e.g. a Steyr SSG. The bolt area opening at the ejection port on the Steyr is just a very small opening only big enough to allow a spent casing to be ejected. This leaves a great deal more strength and ridgidity in the action. Older more open rear locking lug actions, e.g. Lee-Enfield SMLE, are well known for flexing enough to greatly shorten cartridge case life due to the stretching of said case due to the flex in the action.
So, while I agree that I FEEL that the Ruger MAY be stronger, you won't catch me voluntering to test that FEELING by running hot loads in one.
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Old July 7, 2013, 07:48 PM   #42
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Getting a little too heated. For future reference, it's possible to tell when this is happening when posters find the need to tell each other to cool down or to write treatises of significant length regarding how they should and shouldn't be treated on TFL.

The TFL rules state how members should treat each other and no member should expect or demand that their personal wants and likes will dictate special treatment.
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