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Old September 27, 2013, 12:27 PM   #1
7n6
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what would you do?

So I had a interesting scenario happen to me and some friends last night.

Before I start keep in mind there was 5 of us and we were not armed with more than knives.

It was around 2300 last night and we went to get something to eat so we drive there, get out and I turn around and hear some guy yelling from his car from way across the road ( had no idea what he was saying). Then we start towards the door when the same guy pulls up and gets out of his car with his hand behind his back, at this point we all assume he has a gun. He starts yelling at us trying to say we said something to him when we drove past him. We all calmly say no we didn't say anything to you what are you talking about. He finally backed down and went back in his car. When he turned around to get in his car I did notice he didn't have a gun but he was carrying a monkey wrench.

I'm pretty happy with how the situation defused fairly quickly and no one got hurt. I'm just curious what someone carrying might have done differently. I'm still waiting on my ccw so information on what to do in such a situation would be appreciated.


EDIT: also worth mentioning, this guy weighed maybe 145 and was clearly on some type of drug at the time.

Last edited by 7n6; September 27, 2013 at 12:42 PM.
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Old September 27, 2013, 12:35 PM   #2
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Then we start towards the door when the same guy pulls up and gets out of his car with his hand behind his back,
At this point I would have simply went into the building as quickly as I could. Even though I carry I see no reason to confront or be confronted by strangers if I can avoid it. I wasn’t there, so I can’t judge how you guys responded, but I’m glad you’re OK.
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Old September 27, 2013, 01:19 PM   #3
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At this point I would have simply went into the building as quickly as I could.
Perfect
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Old September 27, 2013, 01:21 PM   #4
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^^^ This, if you are in the right public place is always best. It makes the aggressor think twice and gives you potential witnesses or others to come to your aid.
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Old September 27, 2013, 01:33 PM   #5
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I would agree but we weren't all that close to the door. I get the whole " having more witnesses thing" but I also don't feel comfortable turning my back to some crazed guy with a gun.
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Old September 27, 2013, 02:05 PM   #6
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I would agree but we weren't all that close to the door. I get the whole " having more witnesses thing" but I also don't feel comfortable turning my back to some crazed guy with a gun.
Yes, I know in the OP you didn’t really say how close you were to the door, so I can see your concern. However, you also stated that you were not armed, so I’m not really sure how else you might respond to a man with a gun. If the guy started shooting wouldn’t you seek a safe location? If so why not do that before he starts shooting?

Again, not trying to criticize you in any way and realize sometimes there really isn’t a right or wrong response. I guess my point was the best course of action might be to simply separate yourself as far and as quickly as possible from the threat.
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Old September 27, 2013, 02:18 PM   #7
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I would have like you did told him you didn't say anything and proceed to go inside while keeping an eye on him with my hand at the ready to draw my pistol just in case. If he followed inside I cant say what I would have done because who knows how that would have played out. If he was waiting outside the whole time I was inside I would have called the police and let them know some lunatic was outside and inform them of the situation.
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Old September 27, 2013, 02:18 PM   #8
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It is not clear how close he was to you when he got out of his car. But a concealed carry would not be able to do much different than what you did. With five of you and one of him, and no evidence of a weapon (I don't think having his hand behind him would look like a "reasonable" threat to your life/limb) the balance of force is on your side and not him. Until he makes an actual move to attack someone with a weapon you can't be pulling down on him.

That is the very fine line of carry a gun. You have to wait until their is a credible threat to your life or grave bodily harm (or another person). That usually means a much larger/stronger attacker, one that is armed, or multiple attackers. Someone yelling with road rage is not in that class of danger whether his hands are flailing around, in his pockets or behind him.

I think you dd the right thing and it obviously worked. But I would make sure to keep some distance as well so if he does attack it will be obvious by him crossing some ground and you have a second to decide whether to draw or not. But until I see an actual weapon I would not be drawing at all.

Now if it was five of them all angry and aggressive and one of you then that would change things a bit. But 5:1 in your favor means you have the greater force.
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Old September 27, 2013, 07:13 PM   #9
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5 against 1? We weren't there, so we don't really know what actually happened.

Anyway,

As usual, the best thing to do is remain calm and walk away.
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Old September 27, 2013, 07:51 PM   #10
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Sounds like you guys did ok. I'd definitely be walking backwards towards a public place while dialoging with the guy. With 5 of you, probably wouldn't hurt to spread out just a little so you're not lining up targets if he did have a gun-not like you're trying to encircle him, just loosen up a bit. Keep distance and try to keep moving to the most advantageous (safest) place for you and your group.

If I were carrying, I'd definitely have a clear draw for my gun (shirt cleared, whatever), possibly hand on it, but especially with your numbers, you couldn't justify actually pulling it out. Until you saw he did indeed have a gun (which wasn't the case here).

Whether or not there's some little things you could've changed, everyone left in the same condition they met, so sounds good enough to me.
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Old September 27, 2013, 07:56 PM   #11
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Against an armed agressor, strength in numbers only has an advantage if someone is willing to risk/sacrifice himself. While you already mentioned that the entrance to the restaurant was not that close, would you have made it if you did not slow down (or stop) to find out what he wanted? I would have sped up and got inside rather than letting him approach.

If that was absolutely impossible, I would have asked the other guys to spread out and make it much harder for him to watch everyone. If this guy really did have a weapon, it would make it that much harder for him to cover everyone. If the proverbial poop hit the fan, it would also be much harder for him to go from target to target than if you guys were all clustered together.

There are lots of crazies out there and there are also lots of criminals out there. That said, carry if you legally can! Do not assume that that guy would not have pulled a gun on all 5 of you, robbed you, or possible even shot you just be cause he is out numbered!
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Old September 28, 2013, 12:18 AM   #12
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Nobody didn't have a cell phone to call 911 ? What about get his license plate number and make/model of car to get him pulled over and checked out for being intoxicated or on something. If he was as you thought even though he didn't assault you surely you wouldn't want him to just go down the road and assault someone else or have a accident and hurt or kill an innocent person.
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Old September 28, 2013, 04:59 AM   #13
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Glad it worked out OK and no one got hurt!

Can't say for certain because I wasn't there but being a former LEO I probably would have kept myself between the guy and other people with me, "bladed" myself weak side toward him, cleared any clothing that would hinder a draw and retreated toward the door.
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Old September 28, 2013, 06:25 AM   #14
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I would hope that as your situation played out due to cool heads, a non agressive stance / actions, etc, . . . the same would happen with me. I would have tried pretty much the same tactic.

OTOH, . . . (and if I were armed), . . . if it didn't work, . . . I would take it upon myself, . . . not involving any of the other folks, . . . to simply separate myself from the group. I would turn slightly to the right, and begin walking in an obviously intended pattern to flank him to his left.

At the same time, . . . I would be reaching for my weapon, . . . not running, . . . not threatening, . . . not talking, . . . just very deliberately moving and drawing.

He would not see the weapon until he attacked or displayed his weapon, . . . whereupon actions would result in my repelling his threat.

My action would also be designed to let the other guys with me be my eyes on what that thing is he has in his concealed hand. He either gets fully flanked and displayed, . . . or he backs down, . . . or he attacks.

The man was obviously looking for a brawl, . . . and sensed he had bit off more than he could chew in your scenario. Problem is, . . . in a lot of these types of cases, . . . that realization doesn't usually come until they are down for the count, . . . and if they have been playing with drugs or alcohol during the preceeding hours, . . . any delay on your part, . . . may make you a victim instead of the victor.

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Old September 28, 2013, 07:13 AM   #15
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In the scenario you described, if I was armed, I would have pulled my firearm and prepared to defend myself. Since there is only an implication of a weapon by the bad guy, I would try to conceal the exposure if at all possible. My main focus however would be on making darned sure that if he did come up with a firearm that my lag time to respond would be reduced if not outright gone. As I was pulling my firearm I would be formulating the appropriate response to the exact event unfolding to include locating suitable cover and preparing to get to that cover.

Many will say that you can't do this or that until you have actually seen a firearm. This is not 100 percent true. I have the right to prepare my defense against someone threatening me. In this case the bad guy was implying that he had a gun behind his back. A reasonable man would prepare to respond with the appropriate force. Police would draw their firearms, point them at the suspect, and demand compliance (showing of the empty hands). My rights to self defense are similar. You put your hand in your jacket pocket and straighten your index finger as if you have a gun concealed inside and begin to make violent rhetoric while waving that pocket all around, expect to get drawn on by police and any armed civilians that may be subject of your words. You can wait until he fires a shot through that pocket if you want, I will be preparing my defense from the onset.

Many people have been killed justifiably simply for faking like they have a firearm. It would be difficult for a prosecutor to get a conviction on you for simply preparing to use the force appropriate in saving you from what the threat is preparing to use on you.

In a robbery the mere implication of a weapon, even if never seen, makes it armed robbery. In self defense its the same. You threaten me with that index finger in your jacket by implying that it is a gun, and it is as if you have a gun.
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Old September 30, 2013, 08:08 PM   #16
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and was clearly on some type of drug at the time.
IF this is true, you have NO idea what his next move will be or how rational he might react to things - distance and potential cover are the order of the day
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Old September 30, 2013, 08:16 PM   #17
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I think it was handled properly. Your calm response diffused the situation.
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Old October 6, 2013, 11:52 PM   #18
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If a dialog takes place you might as well try to qualify a few things with the perp if possible, including trying to identify if the perp is high on something.
"Hey man we did't say anything. What do you have in your hand?"
"We don't want any trouble. Have you ever been in the military?"

If the guy is high, he cannot be reasoned with.
If he admits to the wrench, now you know he has a deadly weapon.
If he admits to military training, disparity of force is now in play.

The wrench used as a club is no different than a gun or knife. Even though it was 5:1, one lucky swing of the wrench and it could be dirt-nap time.

1:1 and no wrench but you get the guy to admit training in the destructive arts, military / black belt and disparity of force can be a factor... depending on your skills.

Someone approaches me with a club I will most likely draw down on them and tell them to "leave or I'll shoot" while backing up and increasing distance. If the guy is high he might not believe you will shoot and charge anyway. Depending on what he is high on, your COM shot may not immediately incapacitate the perp which makes the argument for saving a few rounds for the pelvic girdle - i.e. shooting the pelvic area and hip joints will at least stop the perps forward motion.

On the other hand, if I had pulled into a lot and some guy was yelling at me from across the way, I would probably also get into the car and leave. However this could also lead to a road rage incident.
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