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Old June 30, 2013, 05:34 PM   #26
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat
So anyway, I sit with both in front of me dry-firing like a mad man and scratching my head. I doubt I'll ever figure it out completely. Anyone else feel my pain?
Nope. I carry and shoot 1911s.
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Old June 30, 2013, 09:18 PM   #27
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"No, the trigger inside the trigger is NOT the drop safety in the Glock.

There is a drop safety inside that blocks the striker till the tigger is pulled almost completely to the rear.

The trigger inside the trigger is to prevent the trigger from being pulled from mere contact with something against the side of the trigger.
It's same with the XD.


PG"

OK, thanks for the edumacation !

Still wouldn't own a Glock.

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Old July 1, 2013, 01:38 AM   #28
Dragline45
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DA/SA is my preference, I learned to shoot on revolvers so the DA trigger is not a problem for me, neither is the transition from DA to SA.
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Old July 1, 2013, 07:56 AM   #29
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I like this thread; the contents of the initial post basically mirror my own thoughts. Hammer-fired guns are just sexy, and I believe they have a very slight advantage in reliability due to more force being imparted on the primer.

At some point, I made my peace with the topic, and am interested in either type of gun if it meets my other requirements. One of those is something I can ride into the holster (like a hammer). That narrows out a significant portion of striker-fired guns, which all seem to have that ugly plate on the back of the frame, so I end up preferring hammers in most cases. But it isn't specifically because I don't like strikers. I love my Walther PPS and it is my primary carry these days, despite a safe filled with hammer-fired autos and revolvers.

I don't understand why more striker manufacturers don't put some sort of hammer-like device on the back that can be ridden into holsters. It would cost very little to add and would make the guns much safer. I don't think anyone is worried about ND when they are holding the gun, it is all about when they are holstering the weapons.

Anyway, I guess my answer is, you don't have to choose. But, since you just like hammer guns more, and you shoot them marginally better, there is your answer. Not everything has to be numbers and logic; if you like something, and it is reliable and you are good with it, carry it.

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Old July 1, 2013, 08:42 AM   #30
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the Beretta is disqualified by Mavracer's requirment lol
Yes the 92fs or M9 wouldn't be "my" choice to carry not only does the safety work backwards but the trigger reach is a bit much for "me".
I had a early 92 with the frame mounted safety and felt ok with it but IMHO a 92 is a large gun for CCW. I sold it and kept my CZ85 in it's place, I have since dsold the CZ and now use a STI GP6 it is very much like the ergos of the CZ but lighter and has the absolute best SA trigger of any DA/SA auto.
I also prefer frame mounted decockers to slide mounted safetys.
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Old July 1, 2013, 01:01 PM   #31
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Since you asked, I'll give you my opinion. DA/SA or DAO for carry.
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Old July 1, 2013, 01:38 PM   #32
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I go through phases. I carried my SIG's, Hk's, 1911's, and striker fired guns. Like Glock and M&P.

I'm a Glock and M&P guy. With SIG next and Hk after. Then 1911's.

That said, from the eyes of an enthusiast I love my SIG's and 1911's on the range. (especially 1911's for range use only, don't carry and shoot those as much anymore.)

From the eyes of general self defense, I love my Glock's and M&P's.
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Old July 2, 2013, 03:26 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat
So anyway, I sit with both in front of me dry-firing like a mad man and scratching my head. I doubt I'll ever figure it out completely. Anyone else feel my pain?
No, I feel very comfortable with either type of pistol.

You are doing way too much analysis of way too little difference. At real self defense ranges, differences in speed and accuracy between the different lengths and weights of trigger pulls is probably not going to be significant. Settling on a gun that you shoot well and practicing regularly is probably much more meaningful than the type of equipment that you choose.
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Old July 3, 2013, 10:30 PM   #34
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There are some lesser known poly pistols that are SA. The assumption that Glock popularized the striker fired pistol disregards a lot of history going back to the early 20th century and even JMB. The H&K P7 was well established before the Glock ever existed. The only common poly pistols that are truly singe-action are the XD/XDm pistols where pulling the trigger causes the sear to lower and release a fully cocked striker. Not even the slightest rearward movement of the striker, it's simply released from the sear dropping. The grip safety is added for that reason.

IMO, the best system yet developed is the Ruger SR9/40/45 where after breaking it in with around 300 rounds you'll get the best stock trigger of any poly striker-fired pistol. Like the "safe-action" design, the striker is pre-cocked and its final rearward travel is accomplished by the trigger mechanism. The main difference being that the Ruger's trigger pull is shorter than the Glock's and after break-in it will be light enough to fully appreciate why Ruger added the ambi-safety. For those who were schooled in the 1911 system and want a poly pistol, the Ruger is a natural. Holstering with the safety engaged eliminates any possibility that the slide will move out-of-battery as well.
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Old July 3, 2013, 11:30 PM   #35
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I just think the DA/SA setup is totally unnecessary--it solves no problem that I have, plus I now find Sigs to be all cluttered up with buttons and levers and stuff.
I no longer distinguish between DA/SA, Glock's action, or striker fired. They are all the same to me. The first shot has a longer trigger pull and the reset is for all subsequent shots. Sometimes the first pull is longer and heavier (SIG) or it is lighter (Glock, M&P, etc).

I do distinguish between those mentioned and any gun that has a long or full length reset. My technique must then change to account for the trigger's requirement of full forward movement before the next shot.

Revolvers are a different game due to the manual nature of the action. I will likely change that opinion after 10,000 rounds of practice.

Other than that, not distinguishing between similar types allows me to shoot any gun in the same class without thinking about the trigger beyond weight and length.
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Old July 5, 2013, 03:56 PM   #36
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I just think the DA/SA setup is totally unnecessary--it solves no problem that I have, plus I now find Sigs to be all cluttered up with buttons and levers and stuff.
That's funny, I believe the exact opposite. I think SAO is totally unnecessary in light of a good quality DA/SA system. With a good DA/SA I can have a SAO when I want it or DA/SA. In other words, I can choose to use the safety like I would on a SAO or I can choose to carry with hammer down, no safety and a double-action first shot. My EAA Stock 10mm is DA/SA. It has the best Single Action trigger of any DA/SA that I've encountered to date. I like it so much that I'm considering getting one in 9mm (if Tanfoglio makes one).
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Old July 5, 2013, 04:50 PM   #37
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I have no problem with any SA auto that has a safety that is a genuine OFF switch. I have no problem with any DAO auto so long as nothing is "pre-cocked" and remains under constant tension, and it has a long and heavy enough trigger to be as safe as a revolver. I also have no problem with a SA/DA auto such as a Walther P38 or P1 which has a hammer drop safety, and which gives me the option, like a revolver, of carrying it loaded and chambered, but under no stress or tension. I also like having the option of shooting my first shot any way I want to.

If pre-cocked or partially cocked DAO was such a good freaking idea, why hasn't it been widely adapted to rifles and shotguns?
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Old July 7, 2013, 02:15 AM   #38
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I'm old, my guns are all metal, SS preferably, and have hammers. Something about polymer guns is a total turn off for me. I see them, and all I think is "cheap!". Nothing wrong with them, if you like them.

I've had a few striker guns in the past, and I sold them all pretty quickly, none of them seemed to be 100% reliable, but none of them were of recent/current vintage.
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Old July 7, 2013, 07:56 AM   #39
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If pre-cocked or partially cocked DAO was such a good freaking idea, why hasn't it been widely adapted to rifles and shotguns?
Different guns with different purposes. Rifles require a precision trigger for long range work. The 15 pound trigger on my DSA FAL did not perform well at all past 100 yards. A double action trigger on a pistol is fine since at allows acceptable performance at handgun fight distances.
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Old July 8, 2013, 03:52 PM   #40
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I am a retired LEO that carried a wheel gun for 30 years. "I" just feel safer with a DA/SA pistol with a decocker. It is a accidental discharge if you don't hit a person, and a negligent discharge if you hit a person!!!
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Old July 9, 2013, 08:29 AM   #41
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To carry, DAO or similar with no external safety --- Simple consistent operation.
Hammer fired or striker fired does not matter.
DAO for consistency or at least DA on first shot for added feeling of safety.

Glocks are partially cocked. XD, XDm, and M&P are fully cocked. From these, I pick Glock for carry.

Lately, my primary CCW is a Kahr. Sometimes, I CC a Walther P99 DA/SA/Decocker or Sig P6 DA/SA/Decocker. These are my smallest handguns.

Last edited by pilpens; July 9, 2013 at 08:37 AM.
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Old July 10, 2013, 04:40 AM   #42
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TunnelRat, I don't feel your pain but I do feel your confusion. So has two pages of this thread shed any light on your "dilemma?"
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Old July 10, 2013, 12:14 PM   #43
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Glocks are partially cocked.
While this is technically true, the trigger pull still feels like a lot of DA/SA's that are in a fully cocked position, i.e. single action. The Ruger LC9 DAO is actually partially cocked when you pull the trigger to fire off a round, but the trigger pull is a far cry from that of a Glock.
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Old July 10, 2013, 12:38 PM   #44
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TunnelRat, I don't feel your pain but I do feel your confusion. So has two pages of this thread shed any light on your "dilemma?"
I certainly have more to think about and I appreciate that. As far as a solution is concerned, not really. But in all honesty I don't "need" a solution. Right now I own both systems and practice with both of them so that I can shoot them proficiently.
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Old July 18, 2013, 12:04 PM   #45
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The trigger inside the trigger is to prevent the trigger from being pulled from mere contact with something against the side of the trigger.
It's same with the XD.
Want to see pics of a guy who's glock went off while in the galco leather holster while getting into his car?

I have a cop friend who's glock discharched from the holster while he was climbing a fence chasing a bg. Hit his shoe but not his foot.

I've had two XD's discharge out of battery in my class and others I've found where the disconnector didn't work. Pull the slide back, pull the trigger and lower the slide, occasionally you will find one which releases the striker before the gun is in battery.

I do like M&Ps and Walther p99s but prefer hammer fired. Even if the disconnecter fails on a hammer fired gun the geometry of the hammer also prevents it from striking the firing pin.

Also you can hold the hammer while holstering which makes a discharge as close to impossible as can be.
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Old July 18, 2013, 12:30 PM   #46
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I don't think the action type is any issue if you are target shooting or even "range practicing" (though I would practice with what I was going to carry)

The big difference is the safety aspect. I work with a guy who was a Deputy and like a lot of departments their had a case of a NG with a glock. In this case it was glock Butt.

While I would not mind a safety ala a 1911 on my DA/SA, I am fine with the revolver like system.

HK does offer that type safety if you want an added layer. Sig does not and I am ok with that but would prefer it.

Not only is the DA/SA far safer the the strikers (not fully safe, nothing is) it also offer levels of operation. I prefer accurate shooting and being able to put the DA/SA into SA mode by cocking the hammer is what I prefer to do time and how concerned I am. I shot my revolver the same way. It suite me, the way I think and act. If the situation is a bit awkward and I want maximum safety vs quicker response I can and do leave it in DA. If I have to shoot them I am automatically into the best accuracy state with the gun (and can easily de-cock and take it out of that mode it if I need to)

As for glock not being responsible for strikers thats ludicrous. They did indeed bring it into the mainstream the same as they did with the poly frame. While stirkers were out there before, they were a fringe alternative, not the mainstream.

The poly frame was fine, the striker not so much. No matter what the PR spin, a system that was deigned for military use is not a good one for civilian use as has been proved over and over again.
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Old July 18, 2013, 12:46 PM   #47
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Some of this is sort of silly sounding to me. Tunnel Rat...do you wear suspenders and a belt? Any GOOD automatic has sufficient safety systems built into it and the only real variable is your finger.
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Old July 18, 2013, 01:01 PM   #48
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No matter what the PR spin, a system that was deigned for military use is not a good one for civilian use as has been proved over and over again.
1911s and ARs disprove this statement along with lever guns, bolt guns etc. The glock IS a marketing marvel, a bunch of solutions to non existent problems.
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Old July 18, 2013, 01:06 PM   #49
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The OP isn't overthinking per se , thinking is usually a good thing. The problem is over generalizing . If I am thinking about a particular design feature in the abstract, I'll often have an abstract opinion, but it's rare to have all my abstracts come together in one package, and they often seem to be contradictory.

A cpl of my baselines : DA/ SA transitions are manageable in decent guns.
I carry Glocks only in proper holsters, and am confident they won't go bang w/o trigger being pulled.
I have extensive background w/ DA revolvers. Almost always fired DA.


But the real answer is that there can be no answer on *catagories* of guns. Specific guns must be evaluated. It's seemingly obvious , but each specific gun must fit YOUR hand.

The important thing about the trigger pull of a specific gun , is that it doesn't suck. I shot examples of every type (ok, not squeeze cocker yet ) , all types had some examples that were plenty good enough, all types had some examples that were totally unacceptable.
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Old July 18, 2013, 01:16 PM   #50
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Some of this is sort of silly sounding to me. Tunnel Rat...do you wear suspenders and a belt?
Feel free not to respond if it's too silly for you?

Maybe we should have a caliber war again? That'd be new.
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