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Old June 27, 2013, 01:25 PM   #1
poline
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Primer questions.

CCI 400 -thin cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer. I'm loading 223 Remington in a sem-auto. Does this mean I should not use these small rifle primers?
What is the danger?

Has anyone used these? Primers recommended for use in .223 Rem/5.56 semiautomatic rifle loads:

CCI #41
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Old June 27, 2013, 02:03 PM   #2
Jimro
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I've used the 41's, they work.

The 400's should not be used in anything with a floating firing pin.

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Old June 27, 2013, 02:41 PM   #3
Martys
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Plus 1 on the 41's... Less chance of a slam fire in a AR
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Old June 27, 2013, 02:48 PM   #4
Tomas
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I have been using the 400s in my Colt 6920 SOCOM. CCI 400s are a robust primer. You have to do your part, however.

My AR has had THOUSANDS (nearly 5000 now) of rounds fired through it using the 400s without incident. Make sure they are properly (deep) seated and you won't have a problem.

I've been reloading for military semi-autos for over 20 years (M14, AR10, AR!5, AK47, M1) and never a problem with with either CCI 400, 200 or WLR or WSR primers. I have loaded thousands upon thousands of rounds with the aforementioned primers. The NATO grade primers are different, to be sure, but superfluous for civilian semi-auto military-style rifle use.

If you run your finger over the back of the round the primer should be below the plane of the rim.

Sorry guys, I have to disagree.
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Old June 27, 2013, 05:14 PM   #5
Kimber84
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Primer questions.

I run 400s as well in both my ARs, never seen anything about not using them. I've got another 2k of them to burn up... Probably loaded close to 2k rounds w the 400s and no issue.
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Old June 27, 2013, 05:30 PM   #6
Farmland
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Actually the CCI 400 is a popular primer for the AR. It is one of the recommend primers along with other such as the Remington 7 1/2, CCI BR 4 and Federal 205 M.

What is not recommended is the newer Winchester brass colored primers. These are extremely soft and do in fact run the risk of being pierced by the firing pin.

In the end it is your choice and your gun. I would stick to the above primers even if some one else has a 40 years history of not doing so. I personally use the Remington 7 1/2 for my AR rifles.
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Old June 28, 2013, 12:45 PM   #7
poline
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What exactly would be the phyical result if a primer was pierced by the firing pin?
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Old June 28, 2013, 01:14 PM   #8
Kimber84
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Primer questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poline View Post
What exactly would be the phyical result if a primer was pierced by the firing pin?
The gun would go boom.
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Old June 28, 2013, 01:28 PM   #9
poline
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In 1998 I was shooting Bazilen 45 acp ammo, In my 1911 a-1. The fireing pin periced one rd. The result was the bullet went down range and the pistol jamed, because the primer was stuck on the fireing pin. I noted no other damage and I'm still shooting the 1911 a-1 today. So when you said that the gun will go bang are you saying that the rifle will blow up?
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Old June 28, 2013, 01:57 PM   #10
Kimber84
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Primer questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poline View Post
In 1998 I was shooting Bazilen 45 acp ammo, In my 1911 a-1. The fireing pin periced one rd. The result was the bullet went down range and the pistol jamed, because the primer was stuck on the fireing pin. I noted no other damage and I'm still shooting the 1911 a-1 today. So when you said that the gun will go bang are you saying that the rifle will blow up?
No no... I'm saying it will send a round down range.
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Old June 28, 2013, 02:22 PM   #11
allaroundhunter
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Re: Primer questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poline View Post
What exactly would be the phyical result if a primer was pierced by the firing pin?
Typically the bullet will fire normally and you may get an FTE.
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Old June 28, 2013, 03:56 PM   #12
Ole 5 hole group
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This chart should answer most questions on rifle primers.

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php
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Old June 28, 2013, 05:00 PM   #13
justsoIcanupvotethis
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I am on my 3rd 1000 of CCI 400 primers and the only thing I shoot them with is an AR. Guess I am either lucky or they are safe. I don't feel all that lucky.
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Old June 28, 2013, 08:24 PM   #14
DoesItGoBang
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"What exactly would be the phyical result if a primer was pierced by the firing pin?"

A pierced primer can cause a wide range of results. It varies from a very small hole to the firing pin sized hole through the primer. In any case this gives a path for the hot gases to escape and do damage. The damage can include:
- Erosion in firing pin tip (small pits being burned into firing pin tip) leading to more pierced primers and/or breakage
- Chunks of primer jamming firing pin resulting in jams and miss fires
- Firing pins hanging on primers causing jams and poor ejection

You may get away short term with the damage, but why would you risk your gun/life just to use the incorrect primer. Check with the primer manufacturers. They recommend the "harder" ie thicker primers for the AR platform
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/produc...ers.aspx?id=30

From rifle to rifle the there are other issues that may cause some to pierce and others to be fine. Keep an eye on your primer to know if you are getting hidden damage.
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/i...-with-primers/
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Old June 28, 2013, 10:10 PM   #15
William T. Watts
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Jimro is right

Standard CCI primers have a tough cup, a pierced primer isn't what should be your main focus. It has already been pointed out these type weapons have a floating firing pin, CCI 41 small primer (use in AR's) CCI 34 large primer for use in (Garand and M1A), both are Mil Spec primers and the recommended primer to use in these applications. When the bolts of these rifles slam shut the firing pin is still moving and dings the loaded round primer. If the round fires before bolt closure (slam fire) personal injury and damage to the rifle could occur. Fellows it only takes one slam fire to screw lots of things up! William
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Old June 29, 2013, 02:19 AM   #16
Jimro
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With an AR there is a small measure of built in safety against an out of battery event as the firing pin can't hit the primer until the bolt face has at least partially rotated. With rifles based on the Garand action, (Garand, M1A, Mini-14/30) that isn't the case.

I wouldn't want to experience a slam fire even in any rifle, but a full OOB slamfire scares the crap out of me. I have used CCI 400's for AR reloads, but I stopped and transitioned to Wolf Milspec Primers (after trying out the CCI 41s and finding the wolf does the same job cheaper).

CCI 400's are not recommended for full house 223/5.56 loads because of pressure. CCI 400's are meant for things like 22 Hornet and other lower pressure rifle cartridges, and according to CCI are the same as small magnum pistol primers (which simplifies loading small magnum pistol rounds for me). That many people use them for feeding AR's doesn't mean that they are "safe" to use for that purpose, just that some people have done it and experienced no negative results. I have confidence that the CCI recommended usage guidelines are well within the "margin of stupid" for over engineering a primer and are unlikely to pierce even with a full house 223 load, but that you get a better margin by using milspec or CCI 450 primers for that application.

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Old June 30, 2013, 06:21 AM   #17
valleyforge.1777
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I wonder why none of the loading manuals mention any of this stuff? They specify small rifle primer, and they do not tell you that some SR primers are not as good for this as some others. They do not tell you to use mil-spec primers if you intend to fire the rounds in an AR. In fact, the load data on the Hodgdon website for 223 Remington specifies Winchester SR primers.
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Old June 30, 2013, 06:45 AM   #18
Farmland
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CCI 400 primers are good to use.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

In case you do not want to read the entire article.

Primers
The .223 Remington uses a Small Rifle primer. In a bolt gun you’ll get good results from all the major brands: CCI, Federal, Remington, Winchester. The Rem 7 1/2s work very well with both stick and ball powders. Benchresters have shown a bias towards the Federal 205M (match), but in our informal testing, the CCI BR4s shot just as well as the Federals, while the CCIs delivered lower ES/SD with some powders. In fact, we’ve found that the “plain Jane” CCI 400s were closely matched with the much more expensive BR4s. Both can deliver good accuracy with low ES and SD. (Currently, at Powder Valley, CCI 400s cost $19.00 per thousand, while CCI BR4s cost $29.50 per thousand.) Some primers do seem to work better with particular powder/bullet combinations, so it’s wise to do your own testing, and you may want to test CCI 400s vs. CCI BR4s head to head. You may find that the cheaper CCI 400s work just as well as the pricey BR4s in your gun.

For use in semi-automatics and AR15s, we advise that you stick to CCI and Remington primers. These brands have harder cups and are much less likely to pierce primers. Also, the AR15 has a free-floating firing pin that dents the primer on loading. This creates a risk of slam fires. So you want hard primer cups. The latest generation of Winchester primers, with brass-colored cups, should be avoided for AR15 use. The old silver Winchester primers worked fine, but the current WSRs are soft and can be pierced more easily than CCI or Rem primers. A poll of Highpower competitors (mostly shooting ARs) showed that Rem 7 1/2 primers are the most popular (33.23%), followed by CCIs (25.78%). The majority of CCI users favored the CCI BR4s, but both CCI 400s (small rifle standard) and CCI 450s (small rifle magnum) were also popular. Only 10.25% of Highpower shooters polled used Federal primers (either 205M or 205). At the time of the poll, many shooters reported using WSRs, but this was the older version with silver cups. See NationalMatch.us website for complete poll results.

For maximum protection against primer piercing and slam-fires, CCI also markets the #41 military primer. Possessing a very hard cup, with decreased sensitivity, #41 primers are designed to resist slam fires in rifles lacking firing pin retraction springs. In a bolt-gun or semi-auto AR-15, it is not necessary to use #41 military primers. But this is an appropriate option for some military applications.

Use this link to read about slam fires and other good information.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/far-15faqs.aspx

CCI small rifle primers

400 For most standard loads in cases requiring small rifle primers.

450 Mag† Magnum primer for ball propellants.

No.41/5.56MM Military small rifle primer with NATO sensitivity.

BR4 Benchrest small rifle primer for critical accuracy needs.

Interesting consideration on primers and pressure.

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

Personally I like and use the Remington 7 1/2

In rifle cartridges, the 6-1/2 small rifle primer should not be used in the 17 Remington, 222 Remington, 204 Ruger or the 223 Remington. The 7-1/2 BR is the proper small rifle primer for these rounds.

Full link for the above.

http://remington.custhelp.com/app/an...0.223/r_id/166

Last edited by Farmland; June 30, 2013 at 07:14 AM.
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Old June 30, 2013, 07:28 AM   #19
Farmland
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CCI Primer Info and what CCI actually shows on their web site.



CCI® STANDARD RIFLE AND PISTOL PRIMERS

These are the “bread-and-butter” of reloading, the most commonly called-for primers in reloading recipes. CCI standard primers are remarkably clean-burning, leaving primer pockets cleaner and extending the time between pocket cleaning. That’s a huge benefit for progressive reloaders. They are more sensitive and easier to seat than older CCI primers, and engineered for smooth feeding in automated equipment.


Clean-burning initiator compound
Larger “sweet spot” for guns that produce
off-center strikes
Easier to seat than ever before
Improved sensitivity for “critical-need” loading
Most reloading for standard size cartridges


CCI® MAGNUM RIFLE AND PISTOL PRIMERS

Some real-world shooting conditions require more aggressive initiation than provided by standard primers. Large cases, cold weather, and certain propellants often require a hotter primer flame and a longer burn. CCI Magnum primers offer you that edge, plus you get all the attributes that make all CCI primers so great.


23 percent hotter flame than standard primers
Increased flame duration
Initiator compound engineered to ignite
ball/spherical propellants
Improved sensitivity for “critical-need” loading
Large capacity cases
Heavily-deterred propellants
Ambient firing temperatures below 20° F
Usage Note: Use Magnum primers only where
called for in published reloading data



CCI® No. 34 and No. 41 MILITARY RIFLE PRIMERS


Military-style semi-auto rifles seldom have firing pin retraction springs. If care is not used in assembling ammunition, a “slam-fire” can occur before the bolt locks. The military arsenals accomplish this using different techniques and components—including different primer sensitivity specifications—from their commercial counterparts. CCI makes rifle primers for commercial sale that matches military sensitivity specs that reduce the chance of a slam-fire when other factors go out of control*. If you’re reloading for a military semi-auto, look to CCI Military primers.
*Effective slam-fire prevention requires more than special primers. Headspace, chamber condition, firing pin shape and protrusion, bolt velocity, cartridge case condition, and other factors can affect slam-fire potential.


Mil-spec sensitivity
Initiator mix optimized for ball/spherical propellants
Available in large (No.34) and small (No. 41) rifle
Use the same data as CCI Magnum primers
Military-style semi-automatic rifles
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