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Old June 27, 2013, 11:01 AM   #1
HK_Flo
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Shooting low and right how to correct?

It seems even on my best days I pull a little to the right and low (left handed) any tips or ideas on how to fix?
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Old June 27, 2013, 11:59 AM   #2
btmj
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I shoot right handed. I will give you my theory on what is happening to you.

After I shoot 100+ rounds, I will start pulling my shots low and to the left. I start to subconciously anticipate the recoil, and push the gun forward (muzzle down). It is easy to discover this if I am shooting a revolver and leave a cylinder empty... when I drop the hammer on that empty cylinder, the muzzle wanders down for just an instant. The old-school name for this is "flinch". It does not take much muzzle wandering to make a big difference at 20 yards !

Since you are shooting left handed, the effect would be the opposite, you would shoot low and to the right.

What to do about it? First of all, knowledge is power. If you know you are anticipating the recoil and pushing the gun down as you squeeze the trigger, you can conciously avoid doing it. Another thing that helps me is to dry fire a few times to reset my muscle memory. If I brought my 22 pistol to the range, I can shoot that gun, and quickly get rid of the flinch.

But honestly I don't worry about it too much. The flinch never shows up until I have fired more than 50 to 100 rounds, which means it will not be a factor in any kind of defensive shooting I might find myself in. If I shot competitively, it would be something I would work on a lot harder.

Jim
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Old June 27, 2013, 12:32 PM   #3
HK_Flo
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That sounds sort of like it but I seem to always do it. My groups tighten up the more shots I take but they are always a little off my point of aim. Sometimes I even hold a little high-left and can hit the bull. I don't think its a sight issue because I do it with all my guns.

Do you think because I shoot cross-eyed (gun in left hand, but use right eye to aim) this could affect it?

I also bring a .22 and it is not as bad but still there.

I am going to a CCW class this weekend with some live fire practice so hopefully the instructor can analyze and tell me what I am doing wrong.
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Old June 27, 2013, 02:35 PM   #4
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HK_Flo
It seems even on my best days I pull a little to the right and low (left handed) any tips or ideas on how to fix?
That's usually a sign of anticipating recoil and helps illustrate the importance of the surprise break.
  1. The trigger press should be a smooth build up of pressure on the trigger (straight to the rear with only the trigger finger moving) until the shot breaks. If you do that you will not know exactly when the gun will fire and can not anticipate it firing.

  2. While doing this, concentrate and focus on the front sight. That also helps avoid anticipating the gun going off.

  3. Practice deliberately, making every shot count, to program good habits and muscle memory. Dry practice is very helpful. You just want to triple check that the gun is not loaded, and there should be no ammunition anywhere around. When engaging in dry practice, religiously follow Rule 2 - Never Let Your Muzzle Cover Anything You Are Not Willing To Destroy." As you dry fire, you want to reach the point where you can't see any movement of the sight as the sear releases and the hammer/striker falls.

  4. You'll want to be able to perform the fundamentals reflexively, on demand without conscious thought. You do that by practicing them slowly to develop smoothness. Then smooth becomes fast.

    1. I'll warn you that I'm a big proponent of good professional training. Among other things, there is really no good substitute for a qualified instructor watching what you are doing and coaching you based on what he sees. Remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

    2. Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something wrong, you will become an expert at doing it wrong. So some good training shows you what to practice and how to practice it. It thus helps you avoid bad habits which later on can be an awful hassle to try to correct.

  5. It may help to understand the way humans learn a physical skill.

    1. In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:

      1. unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;

      2. conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something even though we know in our mind how to do it;

      3. conscious competence, we know how to do something but can only do it right if we concentrate on doing it properly; and

      4. unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively (as second nature) on demand without having to think about it.

    2. To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. You need to start slow; one must walk before he can run. The key here is going slow so that you can perform each repetition properly and smoothly. Don't try to be fast. Try to be smooth. Now here's the kicker: slow is smooth and smooth is fast. You are trying to program your body to perform each of the components of the task properly and efficiently. As the programing takes, you get smoother; and as you get smoother you get more efficient and more sure, and therefore, faster.

    3. I have in fact seen this over and over, both in the classes I've been in and with students that I've helped train. Start slow, consciously doing the physical act smoothly. You start to get smooth, and as you get smooth your pace will start to pick up. And about now, you will have reached the stage of conscious competence. You can do something properly and well as long as you think about it.

    4. To go from conscious competence to the final stage, unconscious competence, is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back. You need to work at this to get good.

    5. If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence as far as trigger control is concerned, he will be able to consistently execute a proper, controlled trigger press quickly and without conscious thought. Of course one needs to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.

    6. Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.
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Old June 27, 2013, 03:33 PM   #5
Erno86
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You might want to benchrest the pistol, to see if your close to zero. The final zero adjustment should be done in the position that you normally shoot from. Besides the good advice from the other poster's: You might be trying to snatch the shot with your trigger finger, as your sights wobble across the bullseye.
Learn to accept the wobble. As your training continues...the wobble area will get smaller.

Relax your shoulders and breathe ---inhaling thru nose and exhaling thru mouth --- with at least three deep breaths, exhaling on the last breath, and take the shot within three seconds. If you can't take the shot within three seconds...start the breathing sequence all over again.

For a faster shooting sequence...you will have to hold your breath during each trigger press.
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Old June 28, 2013, 02:40 AM   #6
45Gunner
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You are definitely anticipating the trigger break. Best way to correct this, and also will cost you nothing while you are doing it is to practice firing your gun while in the comfort of your home. Sit in your favorite comfortable chair and after clearing your gun insuring that it is empty, cock the trigger. Pick an object, any object and set your sights on it. Squeeze the trigger. Your sights should be on the exact same place as it was before the trigger "broke." Keep working at it until the sights are in the exact same place before and after.
The added benefit is that you are also strengthening your arm and neck muscles, adjusting to the weight of the gun. You've spent no money and your next outing to the range should produce on target results. I did this exercise for months until I perfected it. Great excuse for playing with your gun(s) without expending tons of ammo. And you will anticipate your range outings to see how you have improved.

Good Luck and have fun.
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Old June 28, 2013, 09:19 AM   #7
btmj
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You are getting a lot of great advice here.

Pay close attention to what Frank has written. But I will draw emphasis to this point:

Quote:
I'll warn you that I'm a big proponent of good professional training. Among other things, there is really no good substitute for a qualified instructor watching what you are doing and coaching you based on what he sees.
There are some things that are very hard to diagnose over the internet. Bad shooting form is one of those.

As I said, I don't develop a flinch until after about 100 rounds. However if I am shooting something harsh, like a 9mm pocket gun or a featherweight 38 snub, or my 44 mag, the flinch can start earlier. In the case of the 44 mag it can happen after the 3rd cylinder full. Once I detect it, I can manage it... through concentration, and a few minutes of dry fireing.
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Old June 28, 2013, 10:09 AM   #8
HK_Flo
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Thanks I will try all this. Like I said I am going for my concealed carry permit class this weekend and should have 4 hours of target practice with instructors.
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Old June 30, 2013, 08:27 PM   #9
HK_Flo
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Well I feel like an idiot.

The instructor started going over dominant eye and cross eye shooting and I said I shoot cross eyed, he said are you sure and had me do a high tech vision test involving an empty toilet paper tube.

I have been shooting left handed and right eyed for years. It always seemed natural.

Needless to say my shoots landed much closer to point of aim... I don't think my groups got any better but they where more clustered around the bullseye.
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Old July 23, 2013, 07:56 PM   #10
BigD_in_FL
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here:

http://is-lan.com/challenge/images/P...Correction.pdf

LH is opposite of RH
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