The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 27, 2013, 09:34 AM   #1
Miami_JBT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2009
Location: Miami-Dade County FL
Posts: 138
My take on the modern patrol rifle (post yours)

My take on the modern patrol rifle.

In today's world the rifle is still a useful tool for self defense and other duties such as law enforcement. Both uses are set up with very similar roles and tasks. The main role of course is defending one's self from a violent attacker; except with today's sue happy world any action you or I would could be taken to court. So the ability to control your fire is important as is identifying your target and what's behind it.

The key components to a patrol rifle are the following.

1. A light weight semi-automatic carbine chambered in a intermediate service cartridge.
2. Co-witnessed red dot optics and iron sights.
3. A visible white light.
4. Adjustable stock for length of pull.
5. A simple but adjustable sling.





My two example here are both done for under $1,000.

The AR-15 is a mix master build from good parts. The barrel is a 16 inch HBAR Colt Barrel along with a Colt "F"sight tower, Colt bolt carrier group, Spike's lower, DPMS lower parts kit, upper is made by Cerro Forge for Double Star Arms, DPMS upper parts kit with tear drop forward assist. The furniture is Magpul's CTR stock and MOE handguard and VFG. The light is a Surefire Universal Weapon light with a LED build. Sling is a two point Condor Tactical. Optics are an N-Cell Eotech co-witnessed with a Magpul MBUS.

The AK pattern rifle is an older WASR-10. Optic is a Blue Ring Tac-Point Aimpoint clone on a Midwest Industries mount and is co-witnessed. Stock is a CAA metal stock with a standard M4 stock and slip on rubber butt pad. Handguards are Hogue's overmold with rails and Magpul VFG. Light is an older Streamlight M3. Weapon has been upgraded with a Tapco single hook G2 trigger and Tapco AK-74 style muzzle brake. Sling is another 2 point Condor Tactical.
__________________
U.S. Marine Corps: Pirates hate us more than Ninjas

It's like having a glass window with a label saying "Caution: do not wipe with a hammer"
Miami_JBT is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 12:59 PM   #2
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,986
Personally, if I were a LEO putting a rifle together for street use I'd build on an AR-10 platform. Why is that? Adversaries with ballistic vests and the necessity to shoot through obstructions/barriers to reach the target. The .223 simply cannot perform like a .308 in those situations.
csmsss is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 01:14 PM   #3
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
To the OP you have the right idea.
That is pretty much the set up of my HD LAR-15, except I use, except I have different brand crap on my rifle. I really wish I could use an EO tech, something with my eyes though when my glasses are off the EO Tech ring is worthless, a normal red dot like an AIMPOINT I can still use at short range.

If you are a LEO or someone else who might be lugging a rifle around for a long time you could consider the LE6720 for a weight savings. Personally I like the change in balance it brings to the rifle, for me it points better but thats neither here nore there.


Quote:
Personally, if I were a LEO putting a rifle together for street use I'd build on an AR-10 platform. Why is that? Adversaries with ballistic vests and the necessity to shoot through obstructions/barriers to reach the target. The .223 simply cannot perform like a .308 in those situations.
Then you have a much more serious concern about overpenetration with 308/7.62 though. It is for sure a trade off between the two.

A level IIIA vest without a plate won't stop a 5.56. If it has a Level III or level IV plate, that plate is going to stop a 5.56 or a 7.62 unless you are using AP ammo. In regards to the barrier penetration I agree but that goes both ways.

I remember a video of a SWAT team shoot out with a baricaded suspect in a semi rural property. He had broken into the house and I believe some of the guns he used were actually taken from inside that home. When the cops showed up he went down in the basement shooting out of a ground height window at the officers. He would fire 5 or 10 quick shots then duck back behind a wall for cover. Some more penetration there would have helped.

I really wish I could find the video, it was captured on a home security system but its escaping me.
__________________
"....The swords of others will set you your limits".
Patriot86 is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 01:19 PM   #4
Skarekrow88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 139
Quote:
Personally, if I were a LEO putting a rifle together for street use I'd build on an AR-10 platform. Why is that? Adversaries with ballistic vests and the necessity to shoot through obstructions/barriers to reach the target. The .223 simply cannot perform like a .308 in those situations.
I dunno about that being such a good idea. .308 in an urban environment or on the "street" is going to be doing a lot more over-penetration than both the 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 rifles as the OP has shown. 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 will defeat up to and including a level IIIA vest and be able to penetrate most obstructions/barriers you'd feel comfortable shooting through. Not to mention the recoil will be much easier to handle than .308 especially if making multiple rapid shots. If the adversaries are wearing anything more than what those two calibers can handle such as level III or IV vests then its time to tell the patrol officers to back off and call the military or at the very least the tac team because if they have those then they probably have big guns in their hands too. IMO a semi-auto .308 for a "patrol" rifle? No. For a LE Sniper? Sure

Edit: Really like the AK setup, put a Hogue pistol grip on it though
__________________
"A life fought for others is a life worth living"
"A good death is its own reward"
"Amat Victoria Curam"

Last edited by Skarekrow88; June 27, 2013 at 01:25 PM.
Skarekrow88 is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 01:58 PM   #5
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 782
You are probably on a good path. I will say competing in the Crimson Trace Midnight invitational changed a lot of my perceptions. I went from no lasers to several pretty much "overnight".

Most everyone trains and shoots in full light with a little dark-house or night work with a white light. We tend to look at the AR as a stand alone tool when in fact it should be part of a complete system.

That white light needs to be stunningly bright...BUT we also need a detached reduced light level, like 40 lumens or so, for some tasks. Many LEs don't consider or have this option and only a point my light and my muzzle at you option.

Then you have suppressors, which are greatly underutilized by LE. You tell me I am going into a house with a 14.5" carbine, but no you can't use a suppressor...ever heard of OSHA? CLEAR violation if you are subject to Fed OSHA.

I'd look at an SBR (or pistol with a SIG cuff), 10" barrel or so in .300BO with the capability of both subsonic suppressed and supersonic from the same weapon. A low level LED on the bottom of the handguard, a laser, a bright white light and Irons. This set-up will do anything needed in the Urban environment. Yes, that might be pushing the envelope a bit, but I built up about this weapon and my entire family, from a 9 year old to my wife to myself were able to increase hit percentages in a variety of environments over my prior HD AR which was pretty close to what the OP presented.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 02:10 PM   #6
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,986
Quote:
I dunno about that being such a good idea. .308 in an urban environment or on the "street" is going to be doing a lot more over-penetration than both the 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 rifles as the OP has shown. 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 will defeat up to and including a level IIIA vest and be able to penetrate most obstructions/barriers you'd feel comfortable shooting through. Not to mention the recoil will be much easier to handle than .308 especially if making multiple rapid shots. If the adversaries are wearing anything more than what those two calibers can handle such as level III or IV vests then its time to tell the patrol officers to back off and call the military or at the very least the tac team because if they have those then they probably have big guns in their hands too. IMO a semi-auto .308 for a "patrol" rifle? No. For a LE Sniper? Sure
I don't believe in such a notion as "overpenetration" - either you hit your target or you do not. And there are plenty of vests which completely defeat .223 or slow it down more than enough to vastly reduce it's effectiveness, which is entirely based on velocity. Since it's MY rifle, and I find the weight of an AR-10 completely manageable and the recoil insignificant, those aren't even factors.

Moreover, how do I know in advance I'll have the opportunity to "back off" and call and wait for help?

No...I'll stick with the AR-10 platform if I'm getting to build my own "patrol rifle".
csmsss is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 02:37 PM   #7
Ridge_Runner_5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 8, 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,906
Quote:
I don't believe in such a notion as "overpenetration" - either you hit your target or you do not.
And what about when you hit your target, the bullet goes through them, and into an innocent bystander behind them?
Ridge_Runner_5 is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 02:58 PM   #8
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,986
Quote:
And what about when you hit your target, the bullet goes through them, and into an innocent bystander behind them?
That's an unavoidable possibility with ANY firearm, and has to be considered before the trigger is pulled regardless.
csmsss is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 05:19 PM   #9
Palmetto-Pride
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2009
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 1,927
Food for thought if you are close enough to justify a self defense shot you are probaly close enough for a head shot especially with a rifle and good red dot sight, so it wouldn't matter what kind of body armor he or she may have on. Anything more than 50yds most states aren't going to find that self defense in a urban area. Out in the country protecting the ranch well that's a different story.
__________________
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

-Margaret Thatcher-
Palmetto-Pride is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 05:39 PM   #10
Jo6pak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2010
Location: West Coast...of WI
Posts: 1,526
Are you going to get a headshot at a moving target, in low light while they are presumably shooting back at you...of at least trying NOT to get shot??

Anyway, both the OP rifles seem like a good starting point, and some great points have been brought up. But since no one will agree on the perfect tool for everyone, I'll just give my opinion too

1. I'd also go with an SBR (10-12" barrel) shooting a cartridge that can make the most out of the shorty and still maintain rifle like capability at short to medium range. A rifle that is no longer than my shoulders are wide. A patrol officer should not be worried about taking 300m+ shots. I'm thinking something similar to 6.5 Grendal, but don't know enough about calibers/ballistics to make a definite call on that.
2. Personally, I hate co-witnessing irons. I think they just clutter up the sight picture of my nice little red dot. Now if I can flip down my irons (front sight too), that is the way to go. Or better yet give me a QD mount so if the optic fails, I can yank it off and toss it aside. I know this is not a popular idea, but it's my opinion.
3. A visible light is a must. A pressure switch on a foregrip or somewhere handy to flash it on and off. A light with an integral laser would be nice too, but that may defeat the next item.
4. Keep it simple. I see more crap hung off rifles these days that serve such specified purposes as to make them virtually unneeded.
__________________
NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.
Jo6pak is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 06:31 PM   #11
Palmetto-Pride
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2009
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 1,927
Quote:
Are you going to get a headshot at a moving target, in low light while they are presumably shooting back at you...of at least trying NOT to get shot??
No, but I am not going to spray and prey at a potential bad guy in a urban area either..........wait hold on......are we talking self defense in a US home or clearing houses somewhere in Afghanistan
__________________
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

-Margaret Thatcher-
Palmetto-Pride is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 06:42 PM   #12
Jo6pak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2010
Location: West Coast...of WI
Posts: 1,526
There is a HUGE difference between spray-n-pray and higher hit probability.

There is a reason that instructors at all levels stress "center mass" over and over again.
__________________
NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.
Jo6pak is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 10:58 PM   #13
LRChops
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2013
Location: Placer County
Posts: 125
A practical rifle for LEO use is light weight and has no snag points.

I carry a 10.5" full auto Colt M4 with a T-1, Magpul grip, Vltor Stock, X300, and Blue Force 2 point sling. Stripped and light! No snag points, no vertical grip.

If you use a vertical grip it should be towards the reciever and used as a pivot point for CQB. Vertical grips are over rated and provide a less accurate shooting platform. Those remote light switches are lousy and are snag points when doing rural ops.
__________________
May God make smooth the path you follow!
LRChops is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 11:00 PM   #14
Ignition Override
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2008
Posts: 1,804
How about in the AZ desert near the border?
My brother-in-law returned recently from visiting a high school friend who is involved with horses, which is quite an understatement.
Can't go into any details.

Black limousines have been seen on the edge of their land doing drug deals.
The business/land owner is over sixty, grew up in the area and knows how to avoid trouble.

But if you had wide areas of open land with these risks, what type of gun would you carry in a truck or ATV? A reliable set of wheels, and a nice pair of binoculars might be the best defense.
Ignition Override is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 11:17 PM   #15
Patriot86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,293
^^^^ Totally different situation than what most LEO's deal with day to day.

If you are a LEO in a very rural area, especially one where you are almost guaranteed to run into Mexican drug runners sooner or later a LONG barrel 16-18" rifle in 308 seems to be a good idea.

Might be a good idea to have a magazine with AP ammo as well, I am by no means an expert on the subject but as I understand it the cartels pretty much have free access to mil-grade hardware "Stolen"(sold to them) from the Police or Military.

Watching shows like the one about the California Game Wardens or the Alaska State troopers often they have multiple long guns in their vehicles. I have seen many a episode where the LEO had a rifle in 308, usually an M-14 variant, a shotgun AND an AR. Sometimes I have even seen your traditional bolt guns.
__________________
"....The swords of others will set you your limits".

Last edited by Patriot86; June 27, 2013 at 11:23 PM.
Patriot86 is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 11:18 PM   #16
HKFan9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2008
Posts: 2,867
Quote:
Personally, if I were a LEO putting a rifle together for street use I'd build on an AR-10 platform. Why is that? Adversaries with ballistic vests and the necessity to shoot through obstructions/barriers to reach the target. The .223 simply cannot perform like a .308 in those situations.

Some of the newer 5.56 rounds used by the military actually test better than some .308 rounds in barrier penetration, mainly the ones with the steel tips.

Like others have stated over penetration is a huge issue, and you seem to disregard it which makes me pray you are not in any kind of job that requires you to be around any firearms.

Look at the shoot outs that occurred in Boston, you can still youtube the videos of peoples homes that were torn apart by 5.56 ammo. It would have been much worse with a .308 since there is even more potential for over penetration.

I work with firearms on and off the range every work day. I am on ranges a lot with LEO and Military, they practice for just about anything, but going for head shots is sort of unrealistic in a true fire fight. Its a very dynamic situation and most shots will most likely not land on target, Boston again is a prime example and lets keep in mind those weren't just your every day beat cops either. Only certain units even train on it. A co worker of mine and former Green Beret said they used to train on it sometimes, but for the most part is was triple tap center mass.

A .308 would probably be one of my last choices, even a lot of departments designated marksman units use bolt actions in .223 for fear of over penetration.

If I was that worried about another situation like the North Hollywood shootout, which lets not forget basically pre-dated the days where cops carried patrol rifles, its actually basically what sparked the notion of it. I would simply buy one of the many available AP designed rounds. When all else fails there's a reason people train failure to stop drills.. mainly shooting at limps, hips, feet, neck, places where trauma plates do not cover.

I would even take a guess that most departments wouldn't even approve the use of a .308, maybe in some rural area's

Lets also not forget you can get plates that will stop a .30-06 at point blank, so really where would you draw the line, personally I think its more about training than it is about the good old phallic saying that "bigger is better".
HKFan9 is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 11:27 PM   #17
5.56RifleGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 9, 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 1,139
Oddly enough, one of our local police told me they had select fire stg 58s (FAL rifles basicly) available to them. I have to wonder how that came about. Neat, but I dont think Id want that as a patrol rifle.
__________________
Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus
5.56RifleGuy is offline  
Old June 28, 2013, 12:27 AM   #18
trg42wraglefragle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2008
Location: new zealand
Posts: 838
It is of utmost importance to get the lightest possible rifle that will do the job, then be sure to add as many accessories as you can to completely negate these important weight savings.

Don't really get why you would want to have co witnessed sights either as all you do is obscure your vision and almost defeat the point of having a red dot.
Why would you want to get a red dot for fast target acquisition and large field of view and then block it all with your sights?

I choose a bog standard 16" flat top AR like the RRA mid length A4 with a 1-4 illuminated scope on top.
trg42wraglefragle is offline  
Old June 28, 2013, 01:38 AM   #19
Ignition Override
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2008
Posts: 1,804
An ICE Federal Agent showed me his Saiga in 7.62x39.
I forgot which sidearm caliber. His rifle targets often are only thirty feet away.

He knows the exact tragic details of the two West Memphis (AR) patrol officers who were ambushed during a roadside stop, and murdered by a father and son.
This ICE agent told me that he is concerned about the other more violent types of Sovereign Citizens, which is how the two killers were described.

5.56RifleGuy:
Maybe their motivation is the West Hollywood street battle?
Ignition Override is offline  
Old June 28, 2013, 05:13 AM   #20
Palmetto-Pride
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2009
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 1,927
Quote:
This ICE agent told me that he is concerned about the other more violent types of Sovereign Citizens, which is how the two killers were described.
__________________
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

-Margaret Thatcher-
Palmetto-Pride is offline  
Old June 28, 2013, 06:42 AM   #21
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,115
Quote:
This ICE agent told me that he is concerned about the other more violent types of Sovereign Citizens, which is how the two killers were described.
You're talking about these idiots, who murdered two West Memphis police officers during a traffic stop.

My patrol carbine is the Bushmaster XM15E2S, which is a heavy-barreled carbine with a fixed carry handle. Except for the telescoping stock, it's pretty much like the A2 I carried for most of my military career. No frills, no lights, nothing fancy.



I won't be kicking any doors, or clearing any rooms. That's a job for the SWAT weenies, and I'm way past my prime for that. (Not disparaging the SWAT guys, they do a wonderful job, most of the time. I've been on two teams and commanded one, but I realize at age 60 I've got no business running with the young dogs.) However, I'm still a cop and I realize this isn't Iraq or Afghanistan. If I've got a barricaded suspect, as long as he isn't shooting, I'm not either. I'm going to build a perimeter, turn off his lights and water, and try to bore him to death.
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old June 28, 2013, 09:41 AM   #22
SR420
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2005
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 2,878
I have three different suppressible carbines set-up as modern personal patrol rifles.
5.56×45mm NATO, 7.62×39mm and 7.62×51mm NATO. All three have their place.
__________________
facebook.com/M14EBR.US
SR420 is offline  
Old June 28, 2013, 09:43 AM   #23
Skarekrow88
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 139
Quote:
Don't really get why you would want to have co witnessed sights either as all you do is obscure your vision and almost defeat the point of having a red dot.
Why would you want to get a red dot for fast target acquisition and large field of view and then block it all with your sights?
I have never understood this myself. Only point I see of having that is to make sure your red dot is still zeroed from time to time or if your red dot fails then you can pop it off (or leave it on I guess) and still have your irons

Buddy of mine has a M&P 15 and runs an Aimpoint red dot that is co-witnessed with a fixed front sight post. Completely defeats the purpose of having a red dot IMO when you have a big ol' sight post obstructing your vision like that. It would make more a little more sense with flip-up sights like Magpuls MBUS sights or something
__________________
"A life fought for others is a life worth living"
"A good death is its own reward"
"Amat Victoria Curam"
Skarekrow88 is offline  
Old June 28, 2013, 05:07 PM   #24
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,040
Quote:
Some of the newer 5.56 rounds used by the military actually test better than some .308 rounds in barrier penetration, mainly the ones with the steel tips.
References? I think "the ones with steel tips" you are referring to are the M855 62gr green tip. They're supposed to be the standard issue round but where I was in the 'Stan the 77gr Mk262 rounds that were supposed to only be for DMs were just as plentiful. I highly doubt either will out-penetrate 7.62x51 M80 ball through any barrier. Feel free to show me I'm wrong.
__________________
NCO of Marines, 3rd Award Expert Rifle, 236 KD Range
D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! OEF 21JUN-20SEP2011
REV. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Tucker 1371 is online now  
Old June 28, 2013, 08:47 PM   #25
LRChops
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2013
Location: Placer County
Posts: 125
Patriot 86 is right! Nice to have a good lighweight primary and a good .308. My work partner on my task force is a game warden and he carries a 14.5" .308. Nice to have a .308 cover gun on the team!

I work rural ops and carry a 10.4" M4 select fire auto. My partner carries a .308. We have less than lethal .40 for runners. Lots of fire power on the team! Everyone carries an M4 and two guys also have backup MP-5's.

Every cartel member we have dealt with has been armed!
__________________
May God make smooth the path you follow!
LRChops is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13334 seconds with 7 queries