The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 27, 2013, 12:19 AM   #1
DennRN
Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2013
Posts: 82
Rock Island Armory 22 TCM / 9MM



So I got back from the Midwest Guns, my favorite LGS, where I just picked up my newest addition to my collection the RIA 22TCM.

For those of you who have never heard of this round before there has been quite a bit of hype around this new round. Do a little bit of googling on it and you will find tons of opinions specs and reviews.
In short it is a .223 rifle case necked down and just a bit taller than a 9mm.
It is LOUD, spits a fireball each time one exits the barrel, the bullets literally scream down range (varying reports but all agree above 1800 fps, out of a pistol!), and it has practically no recoil.



Left to right 45, 9mm, 22TCM.




The round is a collaboration between 1911 manufacturer ARMSCOR based out of the Philippines and Fred Craig in answer to the 5.7x28. Concern for it's ability to penetrate soft armor like the five-seven has reportedly prompted ARMSCOR to only release it in a hollowpoint factory round.

Enough catching up to speed. On to my thoughts.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC_0100.jpg (142.4 KB, 386 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0102.jpg (112.6 KB, 407 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0101.jpg (129.2 KB, 401 views)

Last edited by DennRN; June 27, 2013 at 03:10 AM.
DennRN is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 12:21 AM   #2
DennRN
Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2013
Posts: 82


Going back to the original picture in post #1 you can see everything that comes with the 22TCM/9mm except for the bullets and brass. Included is a promo DVD, one magazine, a 9mm barrel + 9mm spring, a spare extractor, 2 fired casings, sight adjustment tool, trigger over-travel adjustment allen wrench, manual, warranty card, and a 45acp speed-loader...
The speed loader is for a single-stack mag, the TCM uses a double-stack so this is utterly useless. Also of note, NOT included in the box was any type of gun lock, this was sad since I'm one cable lock away from being able to daisy chain my cable locks through my gun cases and to my radiator Just kidding, I'd never do that to my babies.

First impressions.
While the pistol lacks a bit of fit and finish, all the standard 1911 features are there.
The grip angle is standard 1911. The beavertail grip safety feels really light, (I've used the warranty card to activate it) and has 1-2 mm of side to side play, not impressive. The thumb safety is very stiff, requiring me to tilt the gun and place my index and middle fingers on the right grip to give my thumb enough leverage to activate it, or use my other thumb. I can load a hi cap mag to the last round with these thumbs, what gives? Hopefully this will lighten up over time. Thankfully I can flip the safety OFF with no such issues.
The hammer and trigger have been skeletonized, the trigger has about 0.5 of up and down wiggle but feels solid. 1.5-2mm of slack on the trigger pull before meeting firm resistance. The trigger break is crisp and clean and in my opinion needs no lightening or adjustments, feels like quality work. Absolutely no issues here. There is also a over-travel adjustment screw that has apparently been dialed in pretty darn well on mine so no need for the allen wrench listed earlier.
Grips... There is a circle in the middle of each side for a medallion or crest. Obviously these grips are a cost cutting measure that were sourced from a line of similar double stack mag 1911 stock. Oh well, I'll replace them eventually. For the time being, they give me plenty of friction and purchase. I can live with it.
The mainspring housing is plastic, meh, so is my more expensive Kimber's. The chequering is of very decent quality so I wouldn't replace the mainspring housing unless I ruin the plastic pinhole trying to replace the mainspring in a few thousand rounds.
Magazine... Known issue. I was told that the gun jams on the last round for everyone. Well so did mine, thankfully it's not a true jam. The slidestop is activated prior to feeding the last round. I checked and double checked, the issue clear cut. If making a mag feed both 22tcm and 9mm has a down side, this is apparently it. I released the slide stop and it fed. Ok, so the gun is a 17 +2 shot (one in the chamber and a spare on demand if you want to hit the slide release. If you have a spare mag this will let you start off with another in the chamber I guess. One more strike against this pistol but I'm still keeping my hopes up.
Sights are rear target 2 dot sights, adjustable for windage and elevation. I have a little card showing it was sighted in. GOOD, I won't have to burn up my own ammo to do it, lets hope this "ML" guy wore his glasses that day.
Down side, the front sight is plain jane, black blade, no dot, well, going to have to replace that too, at least I knew this going in. The slide has a date with tritium-fiberoptic sight if this pistol can perform.
We shall see.

Performance:
I had in my possession some hard to find ARMSCOR proprietary 22TCM rounds and a gun range all to myself. It was 8:30pm on a Wednesday by the time I finished my paperwork and was finished being rung up by the sales lady. I asked if any of the staff wanted to help me take her for a spin around the block. I love the friendly attitude the staff have so I always make it a point to be nice back. One of the gun counter guys took me up on the offer and we headed downstairs to the range. The range counter guy said we are closed up so just a few, ok? I smiled and said of course. HEHE.
A quick field strip later and I had the factory oil cleaned off and made sure the barrel was clean and ready to roll. The field strip was easy as pie with no tools needed. Putting it back together was a little tricky but easy once I locked the slide with the thumb safety and got the bushing back in place.

I racked it back and attempted to pull the trigger, nothing. I looked closely. Failure to enter to battery on the first shot ever. I gave it a little nudge and it slid home. I'm about ready to call strike three and call this off. Well I've been waiting so long I decide to push on.

First shot 10 yards... BOOM. For an instant a giant fireball lights up the lane and a small hole appears in the center of the target. Shot two and three with similar results. This pistol is dead on accurate. The recoil is truly the same as a 22 rimfire in a 1911 style pistol. Pretty much the only real sensation I feel is the slide snapping forward ready for another round. On shot Four I hold perfectly but blink as the hammer falls, this might be a bad habit I need to keep an eye on (so to speak). The bright flash in a dark lane is really something I might have to acclimate myself to. I let the gun counter guy take a few shots, and notice that the brass is flying about 10 feet sideways, 4 feet backwards, bouncing off the back wall and going into lanes 5 and 6 (we were in lane 1). I'm really glad we have the lanes closed at this point. Next up is the Range Safety Officer who takes two shots and they both insist I shoot the rest of my ammo. I take a few more shots and can't stop smiling. This thing is AWESOME!
Reality kicks back in on the last round where the slide stop engages and fails to feed the final bullet. I am about to do a tap and rack when I notice the slide stop is in the up position just slightly but still enough to lock it back. I pop the slide and it returns to battery without further hangups. Okay, another issue. I'm surprised I'm still smiling.
After I finished up and they helped me police the rest of my brass, we started talking and we were all impressed.

This gun is not perfect. There are many areas for improvement, but despite all it's flaws, it is truly a joy to shoot. Accurate, easy to keep on target, a real attention grabber, good weight and balance, almost perfect trigger. I'm sold. At the $600 retail that I payed for it, I'm thinking it really beats a sharp stick in the eye.

On a side note look below at the picture of what the brass does as is flips out of the ejection port.


I'm guessing it takes a lot of spin and force to transfer that brass to the finish of the slide. I noticed it when I got home and will see what I can do to get it off tomorrow after work and report back.

Soon to come I will post on the 9mm barrel conversion and how it works out with the change in POA and POI, any issues sighting it in, and any new observations I have on this pistol.
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
-Dennis
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC_0109.jpg (115.5 KB, 386 views)

Last edited by DennRN; June 27, 2013 at 03:03 AM.
DennRN is offline  
Old July 1, 2013, 11:43 PM   #3
DennRN
Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2013
Posts: 82
Sorry it's taken so long to get back with my 9mm results, it's been a busy week and I haven't had time to get to the range.

As promised here is the results of my 9mm conversion testing.


Thoughts:
The 9mm conversion works perfectly with factory rounds, however 3.5gr of IMR PB with a 115gr Berry's seated to 1.15 COL is just enough oomph to get a stovepipe 10/10 tries. Granted this is a light load I worked up for indoor target practice, but up until now it has functioned flawlessly. So for you reloaders out there, you may have to resort to using full power loads to get reliable function from the 1911 - MM.

Sighting in:


For ease of adjustment there are directional arrows to help you remember which way to turn the dial. The first shot is was about 1.5 inches low at 10 yards.

Here is a 4 shot group from the same range once sighted in.

Some additional thoughts.
I shot a a few more TCM rounds, (trying to conserve until I get my filthy hands on some dies) and I noticed that I didn't have any more brass transfers to the slide. Granted, I only shot 5 of them but I noticed no further marks. It's my hypothesis that the brass transfer is the result of limp-wristing. (At this point I'm blaming it on the gun counter guy since he shot about six rounds). I guess only time and more rounds will tell. If anyone else has a TCM and has run into this, please chime in and let us know your results.

Conclusion:
This is a really fun range gun. Not quite reliable enough for me to justify using for any other purpose at this time. The insert inside the case said 500 round break in period... Well once I get some TCM dies maybe, we'll see. Until then it'll stay a range gun that draws a lot of attention. In my opinion it's way too loud to use for defense in the TCM configuration, unless you don't mind being deaf. The fireball is also too bright for use in low light conditions. So unless I'm trying to see if I can punch through soft armor, this one is staying locked up. I also don't see the TCM being much use for hunting except for pesting since most of the small game you might want to take would be misted or chunked. I'm just guessing from the videos of what happens when this round hits melons/hams and the like.

Still this one is staying in my stable, it's way too much fun to let go.
Anyone else get their hands on one of these?
Share your thoughts!
-Dennis
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC_0117.jpg (191.1 KB, 319 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0115.jpg (104.4 KB, 302 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0113.jpg (101.0 KB, 315 views)

Last edited by DennRN; July 3, 2013 at 12:02 AM.
DennRN is offline  
Old July 2, 2013, 12:53 AM   #4
guncheese
Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2013
Posts: 93
i was looking pretty hard at one of those setups
and it may have to happen in the near future
guncheese is offline  
Old July 2, 2013, 02:01 AM   #5
DaleA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1,501
Not seeing the pictures and I am logged in. (Could still be something I'm doing wrong though.)
DaleA is offline  
Old July 2, 2013, 09:16 PM   #6
DennRN
Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2013
Posts: 82
Edited to fix broken image links

Last edited by DennRN; July 2, 2013 at 11:49 PM.
DennRN is offline  
Old July 3, 2013, 12:32 AM   #7
DaleA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1,501
Very nice.

Thanks for the post. This IS the first I've heard of the 22TCM.
DaleA is offline  
Old July 3, 2013, 05:36 AM   #8
kahrguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 2012
Posts: 561
Hard to say how reliably your pistol is with only the few rounds you have fired in it. Also the 1911 is the only handgun I have fired that lets my thump jump up and trip the slide release . Once I figured that out my RIA runs fine. Not a single issue.
kahrguy is offline  
Old July 3, 2013, 08:12 AM   #9
Olympus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2008
Posts: 592
Re: Rock Island Armory 22 TCM / 9MM

I think I'll probably opt out of getting one. Other than a range toy, I don't see a practical use for the caliber and I've got plenty of range toys. And considering the ammo only comes from one company right now, I imagine it will be difficult to come by. The shouldered case doesn't lend as well to reloading compared to straight walled cartridges. And I assume brass will also be hard to source.

Not saying it's not cool, because it kind of is. Just not enough reasons for me to go out and buy one.
Olympus is online now  
Old July 3, 2013, 07:13 PM   #10
DennRN
Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2013
Posts: 82
Brass can be home made if you are into reloading.
There are some tutorials out there but the basic process is:
Start with .223 brass, trim down to a little above length.
Anneal the case mouth with a torch.
Cool and case lube.
Resize with the resizing die.
Trim to proper spec.
Reload as usual.

I love 1911's and have never had an issue with bumping the slide release with my thumb, probably because I have small hands and my dominant thumb is too short to reach the slide release.
POTENTIAL FIX
There is a thread on another forum where someone said they fixed the slide stop issue by modifying the feed lips on the mag. I will consider trying this once I get my mec-gar p-18 mags as spares.

I do agree that I need to run a few hundred TCM rounds through it to get an accurate sample size. Have everything I need to make that possible minus the dies.
DennRN is offline  
Old July 3, 2013, 07:35 PM   #11
rduckwor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 26, 2008
Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama
Posts: 358
Interested in this pistol. Thanks for the report.

Are dies and bullets available yet? The trigger looks to be plastic in your pictures. Is it?

Thanks,
__________________
RMD
rduckwor is offline  
Old July 3, 2013, 09:17 PM   #12
DennRN
Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2013
Posts: 82
Yes, Bullets are available, although scarce (like everything else these days).

Dies were made by both Lee and Hornady, sold out quickly, a new run is currently in the works, expect them to sell out really fast once they are made available. These are all runs made by die manufacturers for resale and not sold directly to the public since the round is proprietary.
On a related note, .223 dies can be shortened to achieve the same results since in all aspects besides case length and volume, the 22TCM is identical to the .223.

The trigger is metal, the plastic look is the Parkerized finish which, (for those of you who are unfamiliar with it's properties), is a dull greyish/black color phosphate coating and is a more durable alternative to standard bluing. It is smooth to the touch and has an almost satin finish/graphite type look to it. It remains non-reflective even with an unhealthy amount of oil and really holds up well to standard wear. Rather than dripping oil, this finish tends to allow oil to slowly wick across it's surface and provides much more friction when oiled vs steel.

You can probably tell I'm a fan.
DennRN is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 01:03 AM   #13
vladan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2010
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 800
Quote:
223 dies can be shortened to achieve the same results since in all aspects besides case length and volume, the 22TCM is identical
to the .223.

I think I have heard something like that before, do you have a link to more info on this?
I am also intriqued by this round, but I'd preffer single stack 1911 configuration - I have spare frame that could be a host to .22TCM top and I already have 9mm/.38super slide so all I need someone deciding to keep only 9mm and put their .22TCM barrel on ebay :-)
vladan is offline  
Old July 5, 2013, 01:39 PM   #14
KyJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 7,474
I have little interest in shooting wildcat calibers but I do enjoy reading about them. I wonder what niche the .22TCM is expected to fit. Certainly not cheap practice. Self-defense? The fireball at the end of the muzzle mitigates against that. The advantage it might have in penetrating body armor is evidently lost due to the availability of only hollow point ammo. Frankly, for most of us, penetrating body armor is not an issue anyway.
__________________
Jim's Rules of Carry: 1. Any gun is better than no gun. 2. A gun that is reliable is better than a gun that is not. 3. A hole in the right place is better than a hole in the wrong place. 4. A bigger hole is a better hole.
KyJim is offline  
Old July 7, 2013, 12:26 AM   #15
DennRN
Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2013
Posts: 82
Vladan,
For some reason I can't seem to find the thread again. I did find mention of 221 fireball dies and 222 dies being modified with good results too. The post with 221 dies gives instructions. Just google convert 221 to TCM.

I went to the range again yesterday and am getting even more impressed with this sweet little pistol. 9mm barrel got some serious range time yesterday with 400 rounds of 125 gr plated RN atop 3.6 gr IMR PB seated to a COL of 1.115.

Having already tried 115gr plated 3.4 IMR PB and getting stove pipes I was confident enough to load up 500 of the 125 grain with a little more powder to help the action cycle more reliably.

Next time I go to the range I will remember to start packing before the range actually closes so in my haste I don't end up tossing all my targets.

The trigger keeps feeling better and better to me, I'm sure that it is a sub 5 lb trigger although I haven't had it scaled. It feels right in between a professionally tuned 3.5lb trigger and a 4lb trigger.

I was putting large holes in the center of the targets with only 12-13 distinguishable along the borders and the rest presumably through the middle.

Good luck trying to get just a TCM barrel, although you won't have any trouble the other way around. If you get one and keep the TCM barrel I will gladly subsidize your purchase by picking up the spare slide and 9 barrel =)

KyJim, There are plenty of people reloading this round and experimenting with adding their own "toppings" including FMJ round nose.
DennRN is offline  
Old July 8, 2013, 01:03 AM   #16
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 8,571
I tell ya, I got good & close to getting sucked in to one of these. I may still yet, but I think I've ducked the worst of it.

Things I like: I love goofy calibers and different stuff that's off the beaten path. I also love big muzzle blast and huge fireballs with very little felt recoil. That's just plain fun. .30 Carbine from my 7.5 Blackhawk (44 ounces of steel) has proven that again and again. I also enjoy a 1911 and the idea that I could run a double-stack 9mm chambered 1911...for six hundred bucks, it's quite appealing. If I look at it that way, the .22TCM would simply be a free sidebar.

Problems that have kept me away: I won't own a firearm that I can't handload for, I simply enjoy the hobby far too much. (rimfire excepted, of course) And with .22TCM, there's so many roadblocks. The dies were the most obvious roadblock that kept me away when my interest was at it's peak. Chasing (yet another) uncommon brass is a huge negative angle for me also. And simply getting a hold of a large lot of .22TCM brass seems to be either NOT possible, or not for the faint of wallet. As much as I love the handloading hobby...I have zero desire to craft or form my own brass.

The slugs worry me also. The shape of them makes me wonder what ELSE you can use if you can't get a supply of the Armscor component bullets? I don't see jacketed .224" rifle slugs having a similar shape or profile. Also...those slugs aren't exactly low in cost, so I have that working against me.

If I do end up getting one, I suppose the .22TCM barrel will be a very rare occasional bit of goofing off, while I pound the pistol to it's limits with 9mm. Actually, another things occurs to me: where I shoot almost all of the time, I'm shooting steel plates owned by my range. I'm worried that those speedy .22's won't be so friendly to the plates. I won't want to shoot them with that round.

So tell me more about the component bullets, and what others are using to top off their .22TCM handloads?
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old July 8, 2013, 01:44 PM   #17
rduckwor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 26, 2008
Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama
Posts: 358
Thanks for answering my questions. I suspect I will wait a but until the component shortages ease a bit. In the interim, I will keep my eyes open to pistol availability.

Thanks,
__________________
RMD
rduckwor is offline  
Old November 22, 2013, 09:32 AM   #18
DennRN
Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2013
Posts: 82
Stopping by to link to my TCM reloading thread
DennRN is offline  
Old November 22, 2013, 10:10 AM   #19
Microgunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,909
I like it.
I've had one for two or three years now and find it a lot of fun to shoot in both .22TCM and 9mm.
I believe the .22TCM cartridge length is equal to the .38 Super, the longest round that'll fit in a 1911 grip.
Mine didn't come with a loading tool or DVD but my UPLULA loader works perfectly with it.
Mine also doesn't have the printed script on the slide but rather it's roll marked.
My only complaint, the cheapish rubber grips. I've been trying to get the new VZ grips for it but no luck so far.
I hope you'll enjoy your's as much as I've enjoyed mine.

__________________
Proud NRA Patron Member
Microgunner is offline  
Old November 22, 2013, 04:28 PM   #20
DennRN
Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2013
Posts: 82
Hey Microgunner,
This thing is a blast and can never bring myself to leave it at home when I'm headed to the range. Especially since I started reloading for it. You are right it does use about the same length as a 38 super, there are people using modified Para-Ordnance P18 38 super mags for it. I totally agree with you about the grips, VZ is the only one that I can find that makes grips for the Para-Ordnance frame that this is built off of and they cost an arm and a leg...
DennRN is offline  
Old November 22, 2013, 05:18 PM   #21
Microgunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,909
I bought a Para P18 .38 Super magazine for my .22TCM when I couldn't get a .22TCM mag.
I took them both apart and found I needed to shorten the mag spring some and trim the feed lips some to match the .22TCM mag.
It was an easy conversion that works perfectly.
I bought Aluma-grips for the Para P14 for my TCM. They didn't fit without some serious fitting. Grip screw holes were different, new grips didn't fit around the plunger tube and the grip extensions that cover the trigger removal slots required fitting.
I made them fit but I'm not really happy with them.
__________________
Proud NRA Patron Member
Microgunner is offline  
Old November 22, 2013, 07:26 PM   #22
DennRN
Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2013
Posts: 82
Thanks for sharing, I've actually been considering been cutting a few corners with everything out of stock right now, but I think I'll go with the factory stuff when I get a chance.
DennRN is offline  
Old July 27, 2014, 04:36 PM   #23
alex78
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2014
Posts: 3
Rock Island Armory 22 TCM / 9MM

Excellent post!
I have been carrying a RIA officers 1911 for the past 10 years and it has been trouble free. My one complaint being from the Peoples republic of California was my 8 round limit. We now live in Oregon. The north is almost as bad as Cal. The southern part is more conservative. The state is a shall issue state, I digress
I now carry a RIA Mid size TCM and are very pleased with it.18 shot load, minimum recoil ,very accurate. I compared my pistol with your description of your weapon and found both identical. very good trigger action, my thumb safety works easy on and off. Like yours it would lock on the last round. I dremelled the magazine lifter to allow the last round to chamber. It works all the time now. The sight needs attention. the rear is excellent but the front disappears when on the target. I carefully drill spotted the front sight and with a tooth pick filled the spot with white paint now visibility is excellent.
The pistol is loud and is a flame thrower. Which some people complain because the ball of fire could impair you night vision. Perhaps in a night fire fight of many rounds this would be so but on a defensive situation a double tap may not be too bad. Now can you imagine what it would sound and look like to the bad guy in front of you.?
By the way on the 29 of this month the U,S,Army is holding an industry wide conference of pistol manufacturers to present them with new requirement's;
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/07/...ntcmp=features
I believe Armscor has a contender here.
alex78 is offline  
Reply

Tags
22 tcm , m 1911 a2 - mm , micro mag , rock island armory

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12727 seconds with 8 queries