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Old June 28, 2013, 10:55 AM   #26
Weatherby Fan
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weatherbyfan- You can not deny they are a great very accurate rifle for the price.
Some are and some aren't. I've shot some accurate ones and I've shot some not accurate ones. There's a reason that savage won't put an accuracy guarantee on them. The topic of the thread is durability, not accuracy.

For what it's worth, each Vanguard S2 is guaranteed sub-moa and the three that I own all EASILY meet that standard.

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Howa. I have had the Axis, Marlin XS7S, and Howa 1500. The Howa is the better built and the most accurate of the three. I sold the other two. The Marlin was a fine rifle also and was under an inch shooter with handloads and a good day on the trigger for me.
Exactly.

Quote:
Weatherby fan, you know the vanguard is basically a Howa correct?
Un huh. And? It's a wonderful action which is a clone of a Sako. It's manufacture and quality control are second to none. Completely machined parts. No cast, no plastic. What's the problem? That the japanese made it? Who cares. It's a superior product.

Quote:
@Weatherby Fan: I didn't know a sling will affect the POI with the Axis. Is that such with the Ruger American? Others?
The POI will be affected on any rifle where the barrel is free floating and the stock is flexible enough to touch the barrel where tension from the sling is used to steady the shot. Yes, the Ruger American suffers from the same problem. You know what doesn't? The Vanguard S2. The reason is that it has a pressure point at the foreend.



Some more thoughts:

Hell, I'd even get a Tikka over a savage. Just look at the way they're made. A perfect trigger hand tuned right out of the box. Everything is machined correctly and exactly and perfectly square. It's got a Sako barrel and you better believe it's guaranteed to shoot lights out. The Tikka rifles have some compromises to meet a low price point like the use of plastic parts but the things that really matter like trigger, barrel, quality and accuracy in machining are there.

The savage rifle is designed around the idea of manufacturing rifles without quality control. They meet the price point by cutting corner in manufacture and design. They don't have the important core quality there.

For example, the accu-trigger is a kludge. Rather than make a hand tuned light crisp trigger like the Tikka, they make one that can be adjusted down pretty light and don't have to worry about hand tuning it because the safety blade will stop a discharge if it's adjusted too light for that particular rifle. It's not a good thing. It's just a shortcut that prevents them from having to make light safe triggers.

Why is there a floating bolt head? Well, obviously because their QC and manufacturing processes aren't good enough to ensure that the bolt head is perfectly square with the chamber as with a quality rifle like a tikka or sako for example.

Why do they have jobs for 'barrel straighteners'. What does that tell you about the way their barrels are made? Think about it.

Why do they use a barrel nut? Think about it. The answer is obvious. It doesn't have to do with accuracy. It has to do with being cheap and using manufacturing shortcuts to get a rifle that works and maybe is even accurate but doesn't require propper fitting or finishing.

Go to any gun shop. Pick up the most expensive savage you can find. Look at the bolt face. you'll find the finish is totally aweful. Uneven, rough, and usually not even the same color from edge to edge.

They have no quality control. Their rifles are garbage. People who like them are clueless. Sorry if that offends anyone but it's the truth.

(I can hear it now: but but but they can be accurate!!!)
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Old June 28, 2013, 11:13 AM   #27
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The POI will be affected on any rifle where the barrel is free floating and the stock is flexible enough to touch the barrel where tension from the sling is used to steady the shot.
You just gave the definition of a non-free floated barrel. If the barrel is truely free floating, then the stock will NEVER touch it.
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Old June 28, 2013, 11:29 AM   #28
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Un huh. Okay then the axis and all savages and the American and xl7 don't have free floated barrels by that definition.

All of those cheap rifles (note: I didn't say inexpensive) suffer from the same problem when using a sling for stability as a proper rifleman would do.

Neither the tikka nor the vanguard suffer this problem.
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Old June 28, 2013, 11:40 AM   #29
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I vote Savage Stevens. Your not going to get any surprises, Plus Barrel swaps are a piece of Cake.

If I am clue less. Happily so. I have 3 of them and I would not trade one for any other in the same price point.

Last edited by A pause for the COZ; June 28, 2013 at 11:47 AM.
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Old June 28, 2013, 01:28 PM   #30
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weatherby fan- You are so far off point on Savage It's amazing. The accutrigger is the best thing that has happened since peanut butter and jelly.. As for clueless... Lets see--Stock Savages win more Comp shoot out than any other brand rifle. Hmmm,,Junk.. I think you are lost in never never land. Stop posting before everyone see how lost you really are. You don't like Savage--hey that's your call,
If you can't get a Savage to shoot good. 99% chance it's the shooter that is incompetant.

But nothing wrong with a Weatherby either. Nice rifles
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Old June 28, 2013, 02:20 PM   #31
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weatherby fan- You are so far off point on Savage It's amazing. The accutrigger is the best thing that has happened since peanut butter and jelly.. As for clueless... Lets see--Stock Savages win more Comp shoot out than any other brand rifle. Hmmm,,Junk.. I think you are lost in never never land. Stop posting before everyone see how lost you really are. You don't like Savage--hey that's your call,
If you can't get a Savage to shoot good. 99% chance it's the shooter that is incompetant.
Absolute nonsense. I have recently read in F&S a comparison where they shoot a bunch of budget rifles. The savage wasn't anywhere near the top. Yes, some are very accurate. Some are not. There's a very good reason that they don't guarantee the accuracy. I can shoot my Winchester and Marlin and Weatherby rifles all much more accurately than my savage rifles. That's not the shooter's fault when he can shoot lights out with the other rifles, it's the Savage Rifles' fault.

Even if we do accept that Savage rifles are somehow the most accurate gun for any price they're still junk. Every single one of their design and manufacturing processes are based on the idea of doing things as cheaply (not inexpensively) as possible. Their quality control is a joke.

Since you're aparently totally ignorant and clueless let me ask you this:

What is the difference between an accu-trigger that's adjusted down really lightly and a good quality trigger that is hand tuned and breaks at the same weight very cleanly?
The only difference is the stupid blade safety mechanism. That's it. Of course, the savage triggers are not hand tuned and I have personally handled many rifles from Savage which 'trip' and have the blade lock up just from handling the bolt virgorously. The accu-trigger is just a regular trigger with a safety blade to allow the user (and often the factory) to adjust the trigger down to a level which would be unsafe in a standard trigger.
I'd rather have a trigger that's safe, period, and doesn't rely on a blade to save it when it fails. Hell - the savage trigger components aren't even hardened - only surface hardened. I hope you don't plan to stone them too much! CHEAP. CRAP.

Savage quality control is a joke. I've OWNED savage rifles in the last 5 years which have problems such as bluing which wasn't tumbled after the hot blu-ing and were covered in the brown residue. I've owned a savage with a warped receiver that it was impossible to mount a scope to without a shim. I've owned and handled dozens with triggers that will trip and lock up just from normal handling. Every one I've ever seen ever has a bad finish on the bolt face.

I even tried a 116 package gun and found that the no-name bases were too wide when measured with calipers and couldn't accept zee-rings. Trying to remove them? Big problem. They used a thread locker but the soft screw heads were not strong enough to see them removed. The screws had to be tapped out!!!!

I have done measurements with the savage tapped and drilled holes and found that they are not only not aligned with the bore, they are also not even aligned with each other - EVER - on at least a dozen rifles. It's impossible to optically center a scope with these rifles without using shims or special rings and bases.

If you apply any upward pressure (i.e. work the bolt hard) while closing it, the edge of the bolt head will catch and STOP on the sharp edge of the receiver. What a JOKE.

Savage rifles are a total joke. Buy a quality rifle which is made from machined rather than cast parts which is not designed to be manufactured as cheaply as possible in every possible respect.

There are quality manufacturers such as Sako who will sell you a rifle that can outshoot a savage. They are tested and guaranteed to shoot FIVE SHOTS into a sub-moa group. Their stocks will never flex and touch the barrel and change the POI when using a sling like a savage will. Their triggers are hand tuned and perfect as-is. their parts aren't made out of only partially hardened steel. The bolt handle is not a cast POS. The bolt is easily assembled/dissassembled in the field with NO tools, just like a howa, or winchester etc. Try that with a savage.
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Old June 28, 2013, 02:38 PM   #32
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Weatherby fan-- I do not wish to get this thread closed,so lets just leave it. I have had around 12 Savages in the last 4 years, Never Had any issues you describe--Makes me wonder if your Bsing.....
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Old June 28, 2013, 02:45 PM   #33
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Not B.S.ing at all.

I find that there is a certain percentage of the population (>50%) who can't tell the difference between a rolex and a timex. Some people just don't have an eye for detail or test out their products properly or even know what to look for

It's okay, some people are happy with whatever product is cheapest at walmart and made in China. Those same people are happy with the firearms equivalent.

Hell, some even recommend them like that guy above with the stevens 200. Yep. A cheap rifle with a horrible finish, bad bolt face, bad trigger, horrible internal magazine, worst stock ever made, horrible recoil pad, and probably misaligned scope base holes is TOTALLY the best option to recommend. After all, it's cheap and the barrel is easy to change. What more could you want?


Last edited by Weatherby Fan; June 28, 2013 at 02:51 PM.
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Old June 28, 2013, 02:57 PM   #34
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My sample is small, I admit, but the 2 Stevens 200 I shoot are sub MOA right out of the box. Great field rifles in my opinion. Also, I have no complaints about the stock triggers.
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Old June 28, 2013, 05:34 PM   #35
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just my own hands on experiance

i can attest some pros and cons on a few of these
i went to help my friend pick out his first rifle so a quci overview and some things to note

Savage Axis
i personally like the size, looked like a normal sporter/hunter rifle, the stock had good grip on the front and it came with a scope pre zeroed

Pros
-zeroed scope
-easy to pick chambering
-nice grip on stock
-able to go shooting out of the box

CONS
-heavy, not light weight
-the bolt smacks the scope & or your knuckles, need some tall rings, or ones that place scope to the left of the gun, personally
-no aftermarket parts that are available, such as stock or additional parts at this time
-bulky, and somewhat blocky in my hands


Ruger American
- feels good in your hands, i can grip good and aim quickly. the overall feel you get is that its light weight and easy to carry.

id recommend the 308 in this for the shorter action , but overall you will get kick from this rifle. this is the one my friend chose in the end and loves it

Pro
-light
-easy to shoot with
-comes with a rail mount
-free cheekpad
-2 stage trigger
-adjustable trigger
-very good bolt
-accuracy is great

Con
-paint scratches easy
-recoil pad is not good enough
-no scope thats another $$$$
-issues feeding some round types, the jam.


another CON i note to most intro rifles is you must buy a cleaning kit separate

for durability, id say they are all pretty equal

but for extreme durability id recommend a mosin nagant, you can get one for 167$'s with cleaning kit, bayonet , sling, and ammo pouches. best money for your buck


but if id have to choose from those selected id go with the american
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Old June 28, 2013, 07:32 PM   #36
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Paint? What are you talking about?

No savage package rifle is usable with the factory rings. The scope is never installed level and frequently doesn't even have the correct torque applied to the rings.

You would do well to learn how to properly mount a scope and you will be screaming for lower rings of better quality (and bases, and scope)

You are correct though that the savage bolt is poor. The handle is not really dog legged and I have not been able to mount scopes as low on savages as other rifles.

The savage long actions is REALLY long. It's pretty embarrassing actually. Hard to mount many types of scopes for proper eye relief and extensions rings and bases are often required.

Between the two you review, at least the American has short and long actions.

For a budget rifle, either a vanguard s2 or a tikka or 3 times the rifle the axis or American are.


Edit: iPhone autocorrect

Last edited by Weatherby Fan; June 28, 2013 at 07:54 PM.
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Old June 28, 2013, 08:25 PM   #37
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im sorry, i didnt mean to sound as if the rifle was going to shoot 300 sub moa or anything outrageous.

i was basically trying to state the rifle is ready to take to the range to shoot out of the box. meaning you can take it to the range and get it on paper at least , as it comes with a scope already, were on the american you'd have to wait to shoot till you purchased a scope.

the other problem i forgot, till i called up my friend, was that both the american and the axis have a recoil nut built into the stock, and due to this, they have yet to make alternative stocks from 3rd party companies to my knowledge.

-paint. sorry again, i was talking about the matt black of the ruger american barrel, my buddy keeps it in a case , but after taking it out weve noticed it had some nice scratches that showed silver. so its not a durable, covering on the metal , against scratches
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Last edited by Duzell; June 28, 2013 at 08:27 PM. Reason: forgot the paint answer
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Old June 29, 2013, 09:26 AM   #38
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This is the first time I have ever heard anyone trashing a savage. Not saying your wrong, but just interesting.

I had a Savage 111 package .30-06 without the accutrigger. It shot really well, but the simmons scope that came on it was junk as were the mounts. Only complaint I had about the rifle and thats not the rifles fault. It had the detachable magazine.

Carry on, this is an interesting read.
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Old June 29, 2013, 09:29 AM   #39
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On a side note, Weatherby fan is definately correct about one thing:

The Long Action, was ridiculously long on my savage.
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Old June 29, 2013, 09:36 AM   #40
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truthfully, i actually was also looking at getting the savage axis myself at one point, but i went the mosin route. the rifle is reliable and is accurate when its all set up, but it does have issues and those should be noted. and another note is that, it also does not come with the accu trigger, or a two stage trigger.
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Old June 29, 2013, 10:34 AM   #41
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@dirtyharry: I've been following this too and it is an interesting read.

I have two savages: a new .223 hog hunter, and a 20 year old heavy barreled .220 swift. The .220 swift gives bug-hole groups. Other than the flimsy stocks, I didn't have any of wthbyfan's problems, but his sample size is a lot larger than mine and I will defer to his experience.

As for the accu-trigger, ruger, marlin, and remington have all copied it, although whtbyfan may be correct in stating that it is just a short cut for a finely tuned trigger.

Wthbyfan is also resoundingly right about one thing: the howa/vanguard rifles. For some unknown reason, they seem to be the best kept secret out there for value, craftsmanship, and performance. Well...that's more for me.

One rifle not mentioned so far is the remington 783. Gun Test magazine reviewed the remington 783 several months ago and gave it a high rating. It is a different rifle from the 770. (Gun Tests is a great magazine. They accept no advertising and tell the plain truth.)

I'm also thinking wthbyfan may be right about another thing. It is probably time for a kimber or cooper in my life.
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Old July 2, 2013, 06:50 PM   #42
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It's too bad Winchester no longer makes the 670, basically a no-frills Model 70. I hunted with one for over twenty years and shot thousands (but not 19,000) of rounds thru it before a bit of rifling let go. Yes, it is a push feed and it came in a cheap birch stock. No-frills metal finish and the trigger was not good-but easily fixed. I "replaced" it with a Weatherby Vanguard, Ruger M77 stainless/composite and even a new Winchester Super Grade. None measured up, I snatched up a decent used 670 from the used gun rack and with the stock off my old 670 and a new Redfield scope it out-shoots every rifle in my safe!
Original 670 is on the way back from being re-bored, a custom stock from Boyd's is due in tomorrow and a Leupold VX-3 is on the way from Midway...it's no longer a budget rifle but I could have gone that route.
My point? Sometimes the best budget rifle isn't the latest inexpensive rifle from Savage, Ruger, Marlin, Howa or whoever. Sometimes it's a good solid rifle of proven design with a good variety of parts & accessories available. A solid used Winchester, Remington, Ruger or Savage may cost a little more than the cheapest new "entry level" rifle but I think the value is there, just have to look a little harder for it.
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Old July 5, 2013, 12:13 PM   #43
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Well said Texasgunnut!!!! Buying a used HIGH quality rifle is often the best option! 10X the gun too!
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Old July 6, 2013, 11:03 PM   #44
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Brand new unfired (outside of the factory) but cleaned Savage 12 LRP barrel. Brand new unfired (outside of factory) but cleaned Tikka T3 barrel.

Any guesses which is which?





First shot at 110 yards by itself and then the next 3 stacked in a nice group. First 4 shots.



Next 3 at 220 yards. That's 0.286 MOA. I literally have no idea why anyone would ever buy a Savage (and not return it).

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Old July 7, 2013, 07:00 AM   #45
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Weatherby Fan, excellent pics of barrel finishes. I have the capability of photographing internal barrel problems now but when I didn't I bought one that was buttom rifled and not reamed, just drilled and there was build ups of metal on the edge of the lands.

They would shred a patch! ! ! I couldn't return barrel as guy was dead that made it. I had them in storage for several years before pulling one out to use.
Now I borescope them when they arrive.

Now here is the kicker I turned some bullets from oil hardening drill rod and at first I made them .300 to ride the top of the lands. Shot three and borescoped it and no difference. Then I started making them bigger and last one I fired was .305 diameter and still it did not take down the peeled up metal ! ! ! ! One would think it would have at least taken the drill marks off the top of the rifling but alas I could see no difference.

I forgot to add I heated them to bright red and quenched them in oil before loading them so they were quite hard.

I gave up, pulled the barrel and I guess I will put it on a 03A3. It shoots about 2" at 100 so it is not a total waste and would be OK for a hunting rifle but as a shooter it is a lost cause.

I bought two of the barrels at the same time and I haven't brought myself to look at other one as I packed it with grease when I got it knowing it would be a long time before I used it.
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Old July 7, 2013, 08:08 AM   #46
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(Weatherby Fan - Looks like your second group was 0.628" as shown on the digital caliper, not 0.286".)

BTW - I have a .243 Win, Tikka that also shoots sub-moa out of the box. It shoots just as well as my customized, match-barreled, Rem 700 in the same caliber.

I was surprised when browsing Cabelas a few days ago. If my memory serves me, the Weatherby Vanguard S2 was priced higher than the Tikka T3. It was part of a package deal, but the price shown on the package showed it as being over $600.
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Old July 7, 2013, 08:34 AM   #47
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Quote:
(Weatherby Fan - Looks like your second group was 0.628" as shown on the digital caliper, not 0.286".)
Re-read the post please. .628 at 220 yards is .286 moa
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Old July 7, 2013, 09:31 AM   #48
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Looks like a loss of interest in durability.
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