The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old June 26, 2013, 09:35 AM   #26
dahermit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near Ohio, Indiana.
Posts: 3,505
Quote:
Speed is good, and accuracy is great... but neither is worth a darn without good target identification.
Are you saying that Bill Jordan did not know what he was shooting at?
__________________
Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?
dahermit is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 09:37 AM   #27
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Is Bill Jordan not the former Border Patrolman who shot a fellow LEO during a raid?

Maybe I am thinking of the wrong guy.

My point is that sometimes speed is its own worst enemy.

(Edit: Just looked it up; not a raid, Jordan was practicing fast draw with an "unloaded" gun, fired through a wall, and struck BP agent John Rector in the head; 1956, Rector died.)

Last edited by MLeake; June 26, 2013 at 09:48 AM.
MLeake is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 09:41 AM   #28
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,042
I think for all handguns, the extreme effective combat distance is spitting distance.

Yes, at the range, with no pressure, no moving target, you can hit things way out there. But it is an artificial environment.

I recall reading about an attempt to make a Civil War Combat course "realistic". Re enactors would come up in squads and have to hit all targets before going on to the next stage. Of course, fastest time wins.

I read that one event, the match directors had set up a tennis ball “cannon”. Squads had to shoot while under attack from compressed air artillery fire. Apparently even the threat of being beaned with a tennis ball was enough to dramatically increase the time it took to clear all targets.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 09:52 AM   #29
dahermit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near Ohio, Indiana.
Posts: 3,505
I
Quote:
s Bill Jordan not the former Border Patrolman who shot a fellow LEO during a raid?
Maybe I am thinking of the wrong guy.
My point is that sometimes speed is its own worst enemy.
It was not a "speed" incident, it was a "careless" incident that apparently happened not on a raid, but in the office. Scroll down in this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i...p/t-34879.html
__________________
Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you only pay more for what you get.
Three shots are not a "group"...they are a "few".

If the Bible is the literal, infallible, unerring word of God...where are all those witches I am supposed to kill?
dahermit is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 01:28 PM   #30
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,316
For a long time I carried a 3" square butt Model 36; it has a hammer spur but I fired it only in DA since I found I could shoot it as well that way as SA. I could hit a silhouette target at 100 yards almost every shot, firing off hand, though the holdover was considerable. With a rest, every shot was a hit. I don't know if I could have done that under stress (meaning the target was shooting back!) but those who say folks with 2-3 inch barrel revolvers can't hit anything beyond ten feet are wrong.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 01:44 PM   #31
JerryM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,884
I do not consider 100 yards "combat" range. Who thinks he would be in combat at those ranges???

Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13 *¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 *For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
JerryM is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 01:57 PM   #32
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,316
No one would take on an armed opponent at 100 yards with a short barrel revolver IF he had a choice, and Slamfire is correct that the range is an artificial environment (but so is anything except actual combat, and no one want to practice under fire from live ammo).

But to quote an old Army saying, "you go with what you got" and if that revolver is all you got, that is what you use if the alternative is taking punishment without even trying to return fire. My point was that even at relatively long range, a short barrel revolver was better than "spitting". And if I were being fired on, I would probably not be standing up in some fancy stance; I would be diving for any cover I could find.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 03:35 PM   #33
1911Tuner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills
Posts: 605
Jordan

Quote:
Re; Dahermits question about splatter plates. These were pretty common for trick shots and merely were steel plates placed to allow the bullet fragments to spray around and do their work. I admired Jordan's expertise greatly, and what he did with the fast draw and hitting in the general vicinity of an aspirin is a major feat, but there was not direct contact between the bullets and aspirins.
I saw Jordan perform his "tricks" in person when I was 15 years old. There was no splatter plate. The only backstop was a heavy, folded blanket. The aspirin tablets were lined up on a table, about 6 inches apart. The exhibition was indoors, and he used paraffin wax bullets propelled by primers only...as was his standard practice whenever performing in public.

Jordan was so fast, that if you blinked at the wrong instant, you'd never see him move.

And he was gettin' on in years at the time.

And he never missed.
__________________
If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck

Last edited by 1911Tuner; June 26, 2013 at 03:45 PM.
1911Tuner is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 03:53 PM   #34
Erno86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 506
I would say about 300 yards. As long as the bullet is going about 600 feet per second...it still has enough foot pounds to penetrate the lungs.
__________________
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

--- George Orwell
Erno86 is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 06:28 PM   #35
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,235
Quote:
Is Bill Jordan not the former Border Patrolman who shot a fellow LEO during a raid?
No, he shot his partner during practice. Killed him to.

Sad but true and he had to live that down for the rest of his life.

But Jordan was a gifted shooter. Top competitor to. He also used a flamethrower on Iwo Jima in WW2 as part of the U.S. Marines.

And during prohibition he was in many a gun fight (as was Askins.)

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 06:37 PM   #36
QuarterHorse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2010
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 404
I like to PRACTICE with my SP101 DAO ringing steel at 50 yards. I'm not 100 percent with it, but, I do okay. After walking back over to the 7 yard line, I feel a lot better with it haha.
__________________
Never enough toys
QuarterHorse is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 07:12 PM   #37
horselips
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2013
Posts: 132
The snub nose revolver has an unlimited range. I once saw, in an episode of Hawaii Five-O, Steve McGarrett shoot a bad guy off the roof of a Honolulu hotel with his .38 snubby.
horselips is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 07:36 PM   #38
Old Stony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2013
Location: East Texas
Posts: 632
When you watch Bill Jordans aspirin shooting, note a metal plate they sit on. You hit the plate basically anywhere between you and the aspirin and the aspirin will disapear. Try it yourself....you won't match the speed or expertise of Jordan, but you can do it in slow time.
Terrible about his AD where the fellow officer got killed. That would have been very tough to live with
Old Stony is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 07:50 PM   #39
Ferretboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2012
Location: Longview, WA
Posts: 214
Heres some spiffy .357 snubby shooting, not a .38 but the recoil wold be worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq3UdULuqt8
__________________
There is no such thing as Overkill, Dead is Dead!
Ferretboy is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 08:06 PM   #40
1911Tuner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills
Posts: 605
Jordan

Quote:
When you watch Bill Jordans aspirin shooting, note a metal plate they sit on.
When I saw his exhibition all those years ago, there was no metal plate. There was a table with the aspirins lined up near the edge of a flat plywood board about 6 inches apart. Seems that if there was sufficient splatter with a wax bullet to clean one aspiring off, it would have hit the one beside it...but he picked off one at a time.

And even if we assume that the bullets struck in front of the tablets and skidded in...we're looking at maybe...what...a half-inch low? That's close enough for government work in my book.
__________________
If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck
1911Tuner is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 08:19 PM   #41
amd6547
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 1,401
I had the honor of meeting Bill Jordan at Camp Perry circa 1980, and shaking his (huge) hand.
He was once asked how he was so successful in his many gunfights...he supposedly answered that the bad guys had the habit of trying to aim.
__________________
The past is gone...the future may never happen.
Be Here Now.
amd6547 is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 08:43 PM   #42
Super Sneaky Steve
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2011
Posts: 737
http://youtu.be/Tied-t1fFsk
Bob Munden makes it look easy at 200 yards.
__________________
anti-state, anti-war, pro-market
Super Sneaky Steve is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 09:29 PM   #43
Kev
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2013
Posts: 603
I also saw an episode of CANNON where William Conrad shot a BG off of a hill probably 200 yards away, with a quick fire hip shot!!!!

I remember turning to my dad and seeing him shaking his head but holding his tongue as it was Moms favorite show after Hawaii 5-0 and Jack Lords amazing shooting abilities!
__________________
"Classic over Plastic"
Kev is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 09:32 PM   #44
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Vice, Miami....

I recall as a teen in the mid 1980s, of a scene in the popular cop drama: Miami Vice, where Dade County Metro Det Sgt Rico Tubbs(Philip Michael Thomas) shot a bad guy only once at a range of approx 50ft.
In fairness, it seemed realistic, because even Tubbs stands up from cover and is surprised the one .38spl round could drop the bad guy.
Tubbs sidearm thru most of the cop series was a J frame S&W 49 Bodyguard.
A few times he used a SIG Sauer P226 9x19mm.

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 03:10 AM   #45
Old Stony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2013
Location: East Texas
Posts: 632
Quote:
And even if we assume that the bullets struck in front of the tablets and skidded in...we're looking at maybe...what...a half-inch low? That's close enough for government work in my book.

I would call it phenomenal in my book...We probably all wish we could have the dedication to learn such skills as Jordan had.
Old Stony is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 09:19 AM   #46
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
I've met a lot of phenomenal shooters in my life. Pistol, shotgun et al. Never once, did any of them say "I have a gift for shooting well". Nor did any of them say "My gun is incredibly accurate". Every one of them DID say "I practice a LOT".

We were all born ugly and wet.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 09:53 AM   #47
deepcreek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 320
If the snubby has 5rds that makes the "maximum combat" range pretty close for me. 15'-25' ft. Basically what I can consonantly hit a paper plate with in a hurry.

People do this and that, jump houses with motorcycles, water ski with a dog on their head, shoot pennies in the air.
deepcreek is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 12:23 PM   #48
amd6547
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 1,401
Well, I do get slightly annoyed when people claim some sort of magical self defense range limit as an if it were written in stone.
I know what I am capable of doing with a decent handgun at 50, even 100 yards. I'm not speaking of snubs here, but 9mm's or other full sized service pistols.
If someone is shooting at me from 50ft, I am going to assume he is as capable a shot as me.
I do spend some time in the outdoors...I have backpacked in remote areas, and encountered a strange individual or two. It always occurred to me that the ability to shoot long range could come in handy...especially in these days of backwoods meth labs and weed plots...or just drunken rowdies looking for entertainment.
With that in mind, I always try to stretch the range of any handgun I carry.
While situational awareness and avoidance is first, escape and evasion is second...being able to place some well aimed shots at long range can certainly aid the later.
Besides, after learning to shoot long range, short range is easy.
__________________
The past is gone...the future may never happen.
Be Here Now.
amd6547 is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 06:05 PM   #49
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
Quote:
People do this and that, jump houses with motorcycles, water ski with a dog on their head, shoot pennies in the air.
Yes they do. Ordinary people. Soccer moms and shop teachers and grocery clerks. All they have to do is 1) practice, 2) not listen to people who tell them "that can't be done" and 3) practice some more.


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old June 29, 2013, 10:43 AM   #50
deepcreek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 320
Quote:
Yes they do. Ordinary people. Soccer moms and shop teachers and grocery clerks. All they have to do is 1) practice, 2) not listen to people who tell them "that can't be done" and 3) practice some more.
Self defense and life or death situations is usually not the place to plain on using performance stunts. Usually people find tactics that work a large percentage of the time because they will be gambling their lives on them.

Reminds me of some karate people that train in fancy stunts then get surprised when they get their face pounded in because they fancy stuff didn't work out in real life.
deepcreek is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12565 seconds with 7 queries