The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 23, 2013, 02:11 PM   #1
02bigdogs17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 104
44 mag rifle

Does anyone have the Nosler load book? If so can you tell me what it says for a 240 gr JSP Nosler bullet with 2400 powder for a 44 mag rifle not pistol. I have a Lyman 49th, Hornady 9th, and Speer 14th manual but I am getting a pretty big load difference between the three and just would like to know what Nosler says. Thanks
02bigdogs17 is offline  
Old June 23, 2013, 02:58 PM   #2
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 2,137
Try this....it was posted yesterday in another thread. While they don't show a load recipe using 2400 with the 240gr JSP/JHP for .44 in the carbine section they do in the handgun section.http://www.nosler.com/load-data/


My experience with loading for my .44 mag carbines is that Powder charges for specific bullet weights vary little between handgun and rifle recipes. I've also found that those loads that shoot well in my revolvers also shoot well in my carbines. I don't use 2400 in my .44s, otherwise I'd give you a pet load recipe. I generally stick with H110/W296 or IMR4227.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old June 23, 2013, 10:22 PM   #3
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 8,934
I have Nosler 6 but it does not show a .44 Magnum (rifle) load using either their 240gr JHP or their JSP with Alliant 2400 powder. The powder it does list for these two slugs in the rifle section are AA#5, IMR-800X, HS7, Blue Dot, W296 and H110.

What is interesting is that when I flip to the handgun section of the same book, it lists precisely and exactly all of the same loads with all of the same powders, nothing being different whatsoever except for the listed velocities of each load...which is of course a bit higher in the rifle.

As it is what I would do next...
I looked at the NEXT page in .44 Magnum, where they list loads for the Nosler 250gr Partition-HG hollow point (BC: .200, SD: .194)
Here they do list a load using Alliant 2400
16.5gr returning 1,283 fps
17.0gr returning 1,338 fps
17.5gr returning 1,374 fps <-- MAX LOAD!
They also denote that the 17.5gr Max Load was the "most accurate load tested." (of the three 2400 loads, not of all the loads tested)

...And because it's all relevant (though none if it is the final answer! ), they also list loads for their 300gr JHP using Alliant 2400, and they list three loads here also:
16.0gr returning 1,385 fps
16.5gr returning 1,433 fps
17.0gr returning 1,481 fps <-- MAX LOAD!
Here they note that the 16.0gr charge was the most accurate load tested.

And again, the load data found in the handgun section mirrors EXACTLY that of the rifle data in .44 Magnum.

Also, for what it's worth...
I really like a couple of Alliant powders, enough that I'm sticking with them even when I find the support available from their parent company sucks the tail end of a rented donkey. In my (not humble in any manner) opinion, Alliant published load data DIED in 2005 with their last proper, useful printed guide. This was before the tools at ATK elected to rid themselves of all previous published work using an array of different projectiles...and replaced all of it with cookie cutter crap using 95% $peer Gold Dot bullet$.

I'm fortunate in that I have a number of Alliant's (and Hercules, for that matter) printed guides. My 2005 printed guide is dog-eared because it's one of many sources I go to when I'm working with Power Pistol and 2400, two of my favorite powders.

The 2005 Alliant guide offers a MAX LOAD for a 240gr JSP in .44 Magnum with 2400 to be 18.7gr returning 1,440 FPS and 34,800 PSI running a Federal 150 primer.

This is a published MAX LOAD, please approach it with caution. Reduce this load by 10% and work toward it.

My final bit!
I won't tell you in a post what the load is that I've been building to run a Desert Eagle... but it's quite specifically a Nosler 240gr JHP powered by Alliant 2400, and my experience would suggest that all the loads I've listed above may be on the conservative side.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old June 24, 2013, 08:24 AM   #4
Rifleman1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
What is the point? Having a rifle that can shoot your pistol ammo is for versatility. Needing separate ammo defeats that purpose.
I sold my .44 mag. carbine largely for that reason.
BTW, I don't understand why a max, or over max, load that sticks in a revolver cylinder won't stick in the rifle chamber. Is the rifle cylinder oversized?
Rifleman1776 is offline  
Old June 24, 2013, 11:43 AM   #5
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 2,137
Quote:
Originally posted by Sevens:

What is interesting is that when I flip to the handgun section of the same book, it lists precisely and exactly all of the same loads with all of the same powders, nothing being different whatsoever except for the listed velocities of each load...which is of course a bit higher in the rifle.
Which is exactly what I was sayin' in my post above yours. This is not only true in the Nosler recipes, but in all of my other reference manuals also. Hornady, Lyman, Hodgdon, etc. What some do eliminate is the use of fast powders in low velocity loads....I would assume this is to prevent stickin' a bullet in the longer rifle barrel using a handgun mouse fart load. Other than those low velocity loads(I tend to stay above recipes that give 850FPS in a revolver), I generally use the same loads for both rifles and revolvers, with good accuracy and good terminal performance. Since both are built on actions intended for the same SAAMI bullet specs, loads safe for one are safe for the other. Factory handgun caliber ammo(other than levevolution) does not come in rifle specific. One does need to consider the increased velocity the rifle produces tho, in order to use the appropriate bullet. Bullets that expand perfectly at revolver velocities may come apart in an animal at rifle velocities.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old June 24, 2013, 12:21 PM   #6
oldpapps
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2011
Location: Middle America
Posts: 457
Ditto Rifleman1776.

The use of the 'same' ammunition is both a blessing and a curse. Logistics of supply and the loss of load spread. A very potent pistol and less than best rifle. Depending upon the needs and desires, the combination is great or horrid.

I have a 5 inch barrel pistol in 45 ACP. My standard lead 200 grain loading gives a consistent 876 FPS velocity. Nice and easy on me and the weapon. The same loads out of my Marlin CampGun with a 16 1/2 inch barrel provides 1045 FPS. As these loading were put together with 231/HP38 for me and my granddaughters to comfortably shoot, that 1000 plus velocity is not too bad.

I load two loading for my 44s. One is very close to my lead 45 ACP but the second is not. With a substantial charge of slower powder, I would hope to exceed the 1275 FPS that I get from a 6 inch barrel when fired down a longer tube.

Back to versatility versus energies. I still want my bolt gun in 30 cal.

Enjoy and be safe,

OSOK
oldpapps is offline  
Old June 24, 2013, 03:36 PM   #7
chiefr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: AR
Posts: 1,257
I interchange handgun and rifle reloads as long as I am using jacketed bullets.
However, I never used lead bullets in a Ruger Carbine as Rugers instruction & warning manual warns against it.
Lead works great in all lever guns. 2400 & 296 are my favorites.
chiefr is offline  
Old June 25, 2013, 07:55 AM   #8
Rifleman1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 3,309
Quote:
Lead works great in all lever guns
I much disliked my Marlin lever gun because it sprayed lead all over the county. Keyholed at under 25 yards. I like lead because it is inexpensive and I can shoot and reload a lot. Plus it is a great hunting bullet. Just ask Elmer Keith.
BTW, much of the OPs confusion strikes me as failure to completely read the reloading manuals. Each one explains their testing methods and why results are not identical across the board. The numbers are guides, not gospel. It is the reponsibility of the reloader to work up loads that he both likes and find to be safe. When I had my gun shop and sold reloading equipment I always advised my customers to read their manual. I am sure very few ever did.
Rifleman1776 is offline  
Old June 25, 2013, 11:22 AM   #9
Salmoneye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,362
Quote:
Originally posted by Sevens:

What is interesting is that when I flip to the handgun section of the same book, it lists precisely and exactly all of the same loads with all of the same powders, nothing being different whatsoever except for the listed velocities of each load...which is of course a bit higher in the rifle.
Quote:
Which is exactly what I was sayin' in my post above yours. This is not only true in the Nosler recipes, but in all of my other reference manuals also. Hornady,
Dunno about newer editions, but the Hornady #4 most definitely has different load data for .44 Mag Rifle and Pistol...

One example is 265gr FP bullet(#4300) loaded with 2400:

Rifle : Min 16.2gr Max 20.4gr

Pistol: Min 16.9gr Max 18.7gr

Same bullet, but with H110:

Rifle : Min 18.3gr max 22.2gr

Pistol: Min 21.2gr Max 23.4gr

Quote:
Since both are built on actions intended for the same SAAMI bullet specs, loads safe for one are safe for the other.
SAAMI specs for .44 Mag Rifle and Pistol are not the same...

Pistol groove is .429", and Rifle groove is .431"...

Quote:
I much disliked my Marlin lever gun because it sprayed lead all over the county. Keyholed at under 25 yards.
Marlin carbines need at least .431" lead...

Last edited by Salmoneye; June 25, 2013 at 11:28 AM.
Salmoneye is offline  
Old June 25, 2013, 07:39 PM   #10
02bigdogs17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 104
I have read all 4 of my reloading manuals from front to back so I understand how to work up a load Rifleman. All I wanted to know is what the Nosler book sayed about this load since I was using there bullets. Thank you buck460xvr for the data thats what I was looking for.
02bigdogs17 is offline  
Old June 25, 2013, 07:45 PM   #11
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 2,137
Quote:
Originally posted by Salmoneye:

Dunno about newer editions, but the Hornady #4 most definitely has different load data for .44 Mag Rifle and Pistol..
Hornady also gives slightly different loads for H110 and W296 which we all know are the exact same powder. The recipes are tho, very similar only differing because of a different test day. Hornady #7 doesn't even list 2400 with the 265 grainer anymore, but the powders it does list, max loads are generally within a tenth of a grain or two. This even tho test barrels were completely different. This tell me, what is safe for one is safe in the other.


Quote:
Originally posted by Salmoneye:

SAAMI specs for .44 Mag Rifle and Pistol are not the same...

Pistol groove is .429", and Rifle groove is .431"...
I didn't say the SAAMI specs were the same for rifle and pistol, I said the actions of both were built "for the same SAAMI bullet specs"(you quoted me on this) which is a max pressure of 36,000 PSI . Same goes for the case dimensions. This again tells me what is safe in one is safe in the other. My error was calling the cartridge a bullet. My bad there.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old June 25, 2013, 10:34 PM   #12
Marco Califo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Location: LA
Posts: 850
Quote:
I really like a couple of Alliant powders, enough that I'm sticking with them even when I find the support available from their parent company sucks the tail end of a rented donkey. In my (not humble in any manner) opinion, Alliant published load data DIED in 2005 with their last proper, useful printed guide.
Those old guides are available here: http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Fre...M/Alliant.html

Also, whan I emailed ATK re: 9mm loads, they emailed me on 6/24/13 data including the old data. See that thread: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527327
The data matches for 9mm with Red Dot; therefore it is valid to say the old data still applies.
__________________
........................................................

Last edited by Marco Califo; June 25, 2013 at 11:11 PM.
Marco Califo is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 06:35 AM   #13
Salmoneye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,362
Quote:
I didn't say the SAAMI specs were the same for rifle and pistol, I said the actions of both were built "for the same SAAMI bullet specs"(you quoted me on this) which is a max pressure of 36,000 PSI . Same goes for the case dimensions. This again tells me what is safe in one is safe in the other. My error was calling the cartridge a bullet. My bad there.
The difference between the data for H110 and W296 can easily be explained by normal variations lot to lot...This has nothing to do with you agreeing that all data for rifle and pistol are all the same for the manuals you named...

Not only do the groove dimensions differ by .003" (.429"-.431"), but the bore dimensions differ as follows:

44 Mag Bore:

Pistol = .417" ; Rifle = .424"

The very fact that the bore and groove dimensions ARE different can create different pressure curves with the SAME ammo...Factory ammo is a one size fit all, but hand loaders need to be aware that there are dimensional differences from one to the other in .44 Mag...I am unaware of any other 'cartridge' that is intentionally spec'd differently between rifle and pistol...

A load that is safe in MY carbine today, may very well create a high pressure situation in my pistol, or any other gun...
Salmoneye is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 08:42 AM   #14
Ozzieman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 4,985
http://www.nosler.com/44-remington-magnum
Nosler does have rifle data but it’s a little hard to find on their web site. You have to go to the lever action section.
I have used 2400 but prefer H110.
__________________
“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading.” – Thomas Jefferson.

Politician's are like diapers.
You need to change them often,,,,, for the same reason!
Ozzieman is offline  
Old June 26, 2013, 07:17 PM   #15
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 2,137
Quote:
Originally posted by Salmoneye:

The difference between the data for H110 and W296 can easily be explained by normal variations lot to lot...This has nothing to do with you agreeing that all data for rifle and pistol are all the same for the manuals you named...

The difference between rifle and revolver can also be explained by a difference in lots....or ambient temp the day the test was done.....but even so....... in MY manuals it is the same. I'm not saying that Noslers is the same as Lymans.....but the revolver info and rifle info is the same within the same manual or web source. Lyman and Speer exactly to the tenth of a gr, same with the free online info from Nosler and Hodgdon. Hornady max loads within a tenth of a gr or so. Go online and look if you don't believe me. At least in all of the combos in .44 mag that I load or have taken the time since this thread began to look at. I don't doubt your older manuals are different. Same with why there is sometimes big differences in recipes between manuals on the same combos. One reason I always use a minimum of three different sources before trying a new load combo. Since my manuals and the online sources themselves list the exact same recipes for both gun and revolver, I take that to mean they are intended to be safe in both. Yes, as a handloader we need to start low and work up, but a 240 gr JSP than safely runs 1300 FPS outta my 629 will safely shoot outta the 77/44 or the .44 lever. It's a gimme if they are modern firearms. That's how factory ammo works. Has nuttin to do with bore size as the guns are both designed to shoot a cartridge that stays within 36,000 PSI. Handloaded ammo that stays within that SAAMI spec are also safe in either firearm.....as long as the firearm itself is speced correctly. If it's not, then even factory ammo is not necessarily safe in it. Bores and rifling may be different, but both are designed to handle cartridges that develop 36,000 PSI or less. This could explain why there are differences in bore.......so that similar ammo produces similar pressure.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old June 27, 2013, 07:02 AM   #16
Salmoneye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2011
Location: Vermont
Posts: 1,362
SAAMI .44 Remington Magnum 'Pistol' Pressure Test Barrel dimensions are on page 120 here:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/205.pdf


SAAMI .44 Remington Magnum 'Rifle' Pressure Test Barrel dimensions are on page 85 here:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/206.pdf


They are not the same dimensionally...

A safe 36,000 PSI cartridge in the Rifle test barrel will have a higher pressure in the Pistol test barrel due to the smaller bore and groove diameters...Will it be 'dangerously' higher?...Who knows...

Ammunition manufacturers understand this, and load their 'factory' rounds to 'Pistol' Pressure Test Barrel dimensions/pressures, with (mostly) .429" bullets...

If this were any other 'handgun cartridge' I would agree fully with you...The .44 Mag is the only 'handgun cartridge' that has separate dimensions and test barrels in their rifle configuration...

My entire point is that the .44 Mag is an animal unto itself, and needs to be treated accordingly if intending to load the 'same' load for Rifle and Pistol...
Salmoneye is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10994 seconds with 7 queries