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Old June 23, 2013, 07:12 PM   #26
FMJ1911
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"of time wasted trying to find the front sight. For that reason I don't feel bad about putting a couple hundred rounds a week at the target from 15 - 25 feet. I do switch from 2 handed to left and right several times.

I don't have a place to practice a lot of combat situations and with my age and mobility restrictions I'm not going to be doing a lot of gyrotations to get the shot off. If the BG comes to me I shoot him/her center mass (not a sexist.I'm not going to leap across an isle, slide into second and do a John Woo firing from both hands. As long as I can capture the sight picture instinctively and instantly I figure muscle memory will do the rest.

We do the best we can with what we have. All correct practice is good practice. "



VERY WELL SAID
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Old June 23, 2013, 07:35 PM   #27
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by FMH1911
Have taken multiple classes,,,,
Hmm! Exactly what classes? Where? From whom? When?
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Old June 23, 2013, 07:44 PM   #28
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Quote:
"of time wasted trying to find the front sight. For that reason I don't feel bad about putting a couple hundred rounds a week at the target from 15 - 25 feet. I do switch from 2 handed to left and right several times.

I don't have a place to practice a lot of combat situations and with my age and mobility restrictions I'm not going to be doing a lot of gyrotations to get the shot off. If the BG comes to me I shoot him/her center mass (not a sexist.I'm not going to leap across an isle, slide into second and do a John Woo firing from both hands. As long as I can capture the sight picture instinctively and instantly I figure muscle memory will do the rest.

We do the best we can with what we have. All correct practice is good practice. "



VERY WELL SAID
Quote:
Aquiring the sight picture ASAP is what I am after when shooting the targets. I pull out from holster or from at the ready and try to instantly capture the target so I can get off a round without a bunch of time wasted trying to find the front sight. For that reason I don't feel bad about putting a couple hundred rounds a week at the target from 15 - 25 feet. I do switch from 2 handed to left and right several times.

I don't have a place to practice a lot of combat situations and with my age and mobility restrictions I'm not going to be doing a lot of gyrotations to get the shot off. If the BG comes to me I shoot him/her center mass (not a sexist.I'm not going to leap across an isle, slide into second and do a John Woo firing from both hands. As long as I can capture the sight picture instinctively and instantly I figure muscle memory will do the rest.

We do the best we can with what we have. All correct practice is good practice
Funny is that.
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Old June 23, 2013, 08:59 PM   #29
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Have taken multiple classes, been shooting for nearly 40+ years
How are you at bullseyes?


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Old June 23, 2013, 09:17 PM   #30
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I'm guilty of not practicing enough, especially one-handed and L. handed. I mostly concentrate on bullseye shooting at 20+ yards. When you're even moderately proficient at getting 9's on a silhouette at 20, lining up at 15- is 'natural' and easy, for me at least.
Still, I have sucessfully defended myself in a draw and shoot scenario that went down in moments.
I can honestly say that the adrenalin/nerve/panic rush came after each event. The only times nerves kicked in before drawing/shooting is when I could see the event unfolding like a train wreck I knew I coudn't avoid. There is nothing calm about it afterwards, but not too bad in the middle of the storm.
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Old June 23, 2013, 09:49 PM   #31
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True Tinner,

The worst part of a confrontation is waiting. That brings on nerves.

But if the action is sudden and one is trained you tend to get so busy doing what needs to be done you forget to be afraid.

Jim Cirillo, in his first shootout where he wounded all three robbers, he said he rushed to the door and confronted all three of then at once. And he was so busy looking at the front sight of his revolver he could see the stratification on the front sight. And Cirillo was a police shooting instructor for they NYPD, with many trophies, before he entered the NYPD Stakeout Squad.

It's the waiting that gets to people so much, not the action when the fur flies.

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Old June 23, 2013, 11:50 PM   #32
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I practice both

When I shoot one of my Self Defense handguns, it is for both the enjoyment of shooting, and also to practice my skill at self defense shooting.

The first shots I take are quick acquisition, rapid fire. I start with 12 rounds in the mag, and a 7 - 10 yard sillouette target. I grip the gun in a low-ready one handed position at my waist at about holster level. After a pause, I bring the weapon up quickly into a two handed grip, get a flash picture, and squeeze off 3 rounds as quickly as I can. I lower the weapon to holster position, and repeat until the mag is empty. I do this to judge my skill from a cold, unpracticed condition.

I then usually shoot about 50 rounds of slow accurate bullseye type shooting, sometimes with a one-handed grip (true bulls-eye stance), sometimes with a two handed grip.

I then start shooting faster, and shoot another 100 rounds just like I shot the first 12... bringing the gun up from waist level and rapidly shooting 3 rounds. My range does not allow drawing from a holster, so I practice that at home when I dry-fire practice. At the range I start with the gun at waist level.

If I am shooting at a 7 yard target, I just use the front sight. at 10 yards, I slow down a bit and get a flash sight picture. I also always shoot a mag full left handed.

Over the years I have found that slow target shooting is a great aid in learning to shoot quickly. If I only practice rapid fire, I actually get worse as the shooting session progresses. By doing bulls-eye first, I gain both accuracy and speed.

This is what I have been doing for 25 years. I have never taken a class, and I have never shot a handgun competitively. Based on what I see at the ranges, I shoot better than 80% of the people there... the folks who shoot better than me usually shoot WAY WAY better then me, and are obviously competitive shooters.

This is what works for me, if someone finds it helpful, great !
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Old June 24, 2013, 06:43 AM   #33
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMJ1911
Have taken multiple classes,,,,
Hmm! Exactly what classes? Where? From whom? When?
Still waiting for FMJ1911's résumé...

And I suspect we will continue to wait for a long time.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old June 24, 2013, 10:09 AM   #34
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Waiting for his return will not be worth your time. Thus, discussing him is no longer relevant.
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Old June 24, 2013, 11:05 AM   #35
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Quote:
My quote is accurate to what you originally posted before you edited your post and you know it.

End of conversation.

I saw it too. It give you a small window to change what you say without it saying it was changed.



10-4 though on all the advice given other than the OP's. Mleake, Frank, Bluestar. etc. Good calls.
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Old June 24, 2013, 11:24 AM   #36
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Not seeing what the issue is. Do both.
Practice being accurate. Practice being methodically fast.
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Old June 24, 2013, 11:58 AM   #37
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I want to add one final comment about a logic flaw of the OP. He stated that...

Quote:
To put it bluntly, putting as many holes in the center mass of an assailant is the BEST WAY to stop a threat.
While putting many holes center mass might work well against a person without a ballistic vest, the problem here is that it assumes that you will necessarily have the time, marksmanship, target cooperation, functioning gun, etc. to put a lot of holes COM. Unfortunately for many reasons, defenders don't always have the opportunity to do this and often not more than an opportunity for more than one or two shots. For this reason, I assume that that first shot is going to be the most critical and potentially the only opportunity. If you get more shots, then that is fortunate, but like the Hispanic drug house defender in Miami going against the cops, a shot to the chest and leg was the only opportunity afforded for a consider amount of time during the fight until one cop made a longer range precision shot that caught the suspect in the head (going back to MLeake's comment about needing to "thread a shot" between things, in this case, between the "v" of branches of a tree being used for cover). See... http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...light=raid+car

Unlike the OP's overly gracious target, you don't always get the benefit of stationary, passive, non-fighting targets to defend against that are standing out in the open, full-on frontal views. You might get that shot, or you might get anything but that shot, but you won't likely get many opportunities at that shot.
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Old June 24, 2013, 02:03 PM   #38
SgtLumpy
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Quote:
zincwarrior: Not seeing what the issue is. Do both.
Practice being accurate. Practice being methodically fast.
This ^^^

Just practice. Close in, far out. Refreshed, winded. While sitting on your bicycle, while carrying groceries. While in an ideal setting at the range with eyes and ears.

Just practice.


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Old June 24, 2013, 02:07 PM   #39
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Remember to unclip / remove feet from rat traps on the bike, first... unless you want to practice shooting from a rather abruptly prone position.
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Old June 24, 2013, 03:01 PM   #40
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I actually have a anadote to share on this subject, which is what I was refering to in my orginal post.

My shooting history is a little diffrent from most folks I've met.
My Dad has been collecting guns since he turned 21. His main focus has always been SD shooting and combat small arms. He was "self taught" and spent a lot of time, through trial and error, figuring out how to shoot and how to shoot well. His major inflances were writings by Cooper and *brain fart* the other guy who's name starts with an A. He and his buddy would also watch action flixs and actually try (what they could safely) to do stuff they'd seen for funnsies. (so when my Dad tells you you cannot run shooting at the bad guys and have them all dropping, he's not just speaking from hearsay. )

So when his 8 year old little girl learned to shoot, she got taught what he knew how to teach. I got the basics on gun saftey and trigger control with an AR-7 and then it was straight over to semi auto pistols, shooting center mass on man sized targets (he drew creatures from the old monster movies instead of people to keep it sorta PC) at between 10 and 15 feet with rapid fire and double taps.
The biggest diffrence between what he taught and what the OP advocated was that he stress shot placement, and would start slow and then get me to speed up as I gained proficiency.

When I got older, I joined 4H and the local chapter had a shooting club. That's where I learned 3P. A totally diffrent style and not really anything obviously SD shooting related.
The thing was stuff I learned on those ranges had a PROFOUND impact on my orginal disapline and benifited me immensly.

After that, the next big thing was when I got my Model 19, which was the first revolover I ever shot, at 16. With time on my iwn to practice, I did a lot more slow shooting and consentrating on smaller groups and targets at longer distances.
Again, my skills improved drastically when I went back to SD practice.

And it's not just the fundimentals and all practice makes for better shooting. Sometimes it's the weirdest stuff, that you otherwise just wouldn't think about, othertimes it's the little tricks of the trade that you go "hey, if I apply that to SD shooting it might really make a diffrence."

I say that if you want to be REALLY GOOD at one disipline (which I'll admit, I'm not nearly as good as I wish I were) you should experiment with as many diffrent disiplines as you can, because they all have something you havn't tried before and you'll never know what can benifit you until you try it.
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Old June 24, 2013, 04:14 PM   #41
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I would define center mass on a human target as an 8" diameter pie plate.
On dealing with lethal force on a single human with a firearm...such as with a pistol or a rifle, is to put the subject down with a volley of fast accurate fire, so as to make him incapable of returning fire.

If the bad guy's shoulder is the only target exposed to my field of fire...I'll go for the shoulder.
Two shots into one center mass hole, in 1.5 seconds --- is effective---but six shots in 1.5 seconds, all over the human body torso, is alot more efficient.
That means....I'm not worried about wasting meat on a human target, such as I would be worried about wasting meat on a gunshot deer. It means that I'm going to take fast effective/efficient shots all over the human torso, too a bad guy that deserves it.
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Old June 24, 2013, 10:20 PM   #42
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This is the same argument as point shooting vs aiming.

Sometimes two things are complimentary.
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Old June 25, 2013, 03:01 PM   #43
RBid
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Self-Defense Shooting is NOT Bullseye Shooting

When it comes to accuracy and speed, training for either without the other is setting yourself up for failure.
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Old June 26, 2013, 10:05 AM   #44
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Self defense isn't bullseye,

BUT;

It certainly wont hurt.

I shoot a lot of bullseye, it hasn't slowed down or affected my ability to get my 642 out of my pocket and on target at bad breath distance.

If you were to take you pocket revolver and practice some bullseye, you wont win, but you'll certainly improve your abilities with your self defense gun.

I also, practice bowling pins, steel, ICORE and other action type matches with my 642.
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Old June 26, 2013, 06:25 PM   #45
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This is the same argument as point shooting vs aiming.

Sometimes two things are complimentary.
Actually point shooting IS a form of aiming. In point shooting you still index your body to the target as well as the shooting arm.

See all aiming with sights does is make a more solid index on the target. The sights form the index. Sighted fire you still index part of your body and shooting arm(s) to achieve faster indexes.

Jeff Cooper wrote that if you cannot see your sights (as in night or near-night conditions) then perform the same presentation (draw that is) AS IF YOU COULD SEE THE SIGHTS. I.E. you form the same index!

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Old June 27, 2013, 11:56 AM   #46
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The biggest myth in training is that one can prepare (train) for any and all situation(s). That is just not possible, especially on most ranges. One has to build enough confidence and expertise enough to handle the unexpected. (How can one train on a conventional range for a situation like dealing with a car-jacking? Where do you park the car? Will it bother you if you blow a hole in your car door while training? Will your insurance cover a bullet into the overhead camshaft?)

As for aim vs. point, the difference, normally, is the distance. At three feet, no one is going to "acquire a sight picture" - the BG may well have a knife and "acquire a picture" of your insides first. Remember, that just displaying a gun will NOT always stop the BG, and a good knife artist will slice and dice you if you don't stop him instantly.

To me, all the "combat shooting" games are just that - games. In that respect they are no different from bullseye shooting and have as little relevance to real world conditions. The real difference was brought out by the famous Ed McGivern, who was the fastest man with a revolver in the world (at that time). When asked if he could have beaten some Old West lawman, he replied that he would lose - the difference was that he (McGivern) was a shooter while the old lawman was a killer.

The main requirement in training is not in the stance, or trigger control, or sight picture. It is acquiring the skills and mindset of a killer without becoming a murderer.

Jim
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Old June 27, 2013, 01:03 PM   #47
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Quote:
The main requirement in training is not in the stance, or trigger control, or sight picture. It is acquiring the skills and mindset of a killer without becoming a murderer.
Thank you. I feel people have this washed up idea that they can just buy and gun and call it a day. They keyword in the term "gunfight" is "fight". With whatever it is you have. The main point is for the good guys to come home. At whatever the cost. They won't show and honor or mercy. They chose a life of crime and do whatever it takes to get what they want, which is just what you have. Everything from the watch on your wrist to your life. So why not train for the worst and hope for the best? Why handicap yourself?

What stops a bad guy with a gun? A good guy with a gun.

Why do you carry that gun? Yes, to save your life. But why a gun? To stop the person trying to potentially end your life. At all costs. We train for center of mass under stress for a reason, it's the biggest target and has the 2nd best vitals with the head being runner up. Even then there have been insane occurrences.

Why do we train with the "Mozambique Drill"? So make sure that that threat is gone.

Train hard and train under stress. Take a class. Many classes. I myself want to take more and more classes. From different people. There is always something new to learn. You can take from every class and incorporate it into yourself. Open mindedness is key. Drop the ego. I go in as a "new shooter". I keep that mentality. Am I a new shooter? No...but I'm new in that class and I'm a lifetime student. They're there to help you. (and make money)
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Old June 27, 2013, 03:47 PM   #48
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Quote:
The biggest myth in training is that one can prepare (train) for any and all situation(s). That is just not possible, especially on most ranges. One has to build enough confidence and expertise enough to handle the unexpected. (How can one train on a conventional range for a situation like dealing with a car-jacking? Where do you park the car? Will it bother you if you blow a hole in your car door while training? Will your insurance cover a bullet into the overhead camshaft?)

As for aim vs. point, the difference, normally, is the distance. At three feet, no one is going to "acquire a sight picture" - the BG may well have a knife and "acquire a picture" of your insides first. Remember, that just displaying a gun will NOT always stop the BG, and a good knife artist will slice and dice you if you don't stop him instantly.

To me, all the "combat shooting" games are just that - games. In that respect they are no different from bullseye shooting and have as little relevance to real world conditions. The real difference was brought out by the famous Ed McGivern, who was the fastest man with a revolver in the world (at that time). When asked if he could have beaten some Old West lawman, he replied that he would lose - the difference was that he (McGivern) was a shooter while the old lawman was a killer.

The main requirement in training is not in the stance, or trigger control, or sight picture. It is acquiring the skills and mindset of a killer without becoming a murderer.
I think I'm going to get this printed up on some nice heavy card stock and have it framed. Can't disagree with a single word.
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Old June 27, 2013, 06:13 PM   #49
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One trains so they can adapt to different situations. As Bruce Lee said, "Adapt, improvise, overcome".

See, the stances you learn in shooting (or marital arts) are not set in stone. You learn them in training and also learn to adapt them for in real life it won't be anything like the dojo or gun range (even the dynamic gun ranges.)

Competition helps one learn to adapt. Be it IPSC/IDPA/NRA etc... or just about any marital arts tournament (including boxing and MMA). The faster and more dynamic the tournament the more you learn to adapt.

But even then, it isn't a real fight.

Deaf
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Old June 29, 2013, 05:25 PM   #50
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Obviously, it's best to be both fast and accurate.
But as a rule, as speed increases accuracy almost always decreases.
I honestly think that most folks who practice "combat shooting" would do better to SLOW DOWN.
Take the time to actually aim, and YES, use that front sight.

It is frightening how often police and military personnel miss their target in shootouts.
And every miss could mean another dead innocent bystander.
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