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Old June 21, 2013, 11:23 AM   #1
Hundy
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Mistake on reload

I made a mistake. I was reloading 38 special hornady 158 grain. I was using clays powder. The website and my book say the Max load is 3.1. I was going to load 3.0, the load prior felt to lite. After loading a box of 50 I noticed that my powder scale was set to 4.0. I hate that U shaped piece on my RCBS scale. Anyway, I think I have to go buy tool to remove the bullets. I cannot think of anything else. Anyone have any advice, other than bullet removal and start over? I feel like a idiot, but, I guess I am glad I caught it, just wish I found the error sooner.

Thanks

Jay
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Old June 21, 2013, 11:33 AM   #2
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A bullet puller is much cheaper than a new gun.
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Old June 21, 2013, 11:39 AM   #3
Hundy
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Thank you

Yea, I agree. There was a small part of me hoping there was another way. I know what I have to do. Thank you for the reply. I am going online to look for a puller right now.

Thanks

Jay
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Old June 21, 2013, 11:42 AM   #4
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I would pull them or toss them, good thing you didnt load 500 before you caught it.
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Old June 21, 2013, 11:48 AM   #5
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AFAIK, there's no way to correct for an overcharge other than to break the rounds down to components and start over.

I'll admit to having to pull down a 50 rd box of pistol ammo because my powder measure partly disassembled itself during a run, changing the amount of charge.

The important thing to do is have some kind of process check. Some use a powder cop die in their progressive press and check every round. Others trust their equipment and check every x rounds to verify charge. And "batch" reloaders check the loading block visually before seating bullets.

I've never had a problem since that powder measure incident, but I check the thrown charge every box just because it makes me sleep better...
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Old June 21, 2013, 11:50 AM   #6
AllenJ
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An idiot would have found his error and then went ahead and shot them. I think you are smart for dealing with it in the correct way.

A few years back I had to pull bullets from 100 264 Win Mag loads due to improper sizing die adjustment. I used a kinetic bullet puller and when it was all done I was pretty amazed at how fast it went.
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Old June 21, 2013, 12:11 PM   #7
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A person could say "Its just one grain" but that is 33% of 3 grains

A lot like putting 80 grains in a 60 gr load.You are right to break them down.

You discovered a weak spot in your process.Good!!

Solve it your own way.A suggestion might be ,after setting your powder measure,re-check your scale setting to confirm.

I have found if I just look at something,I might see what I expect to see,but if I say out loud what I'm looking at,I have to process it deeper.

Good catch
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Old June 21, 2013, 12:16 PM   #8
Hundy
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Bullet removal

I was looking at the pullers on line, hammer shaped type devices. I know working with ammunition and reloading, nothing is truly inherently safe. But is it pretty safe using those hammer like bullet pullers to pull bullets on cartridges with primers and powder? I was looking at the RCBS power puller or the Frankfort Arsenal Quick N EZ puller.

Thanks again

Jay
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Old June 21, 2013, 12:25 PM   #9
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Yes, the inertia - impact - hammer type of bullet puller is quite safe.
That's all I've ever used.
Don't feel bad about having to do this.
Think of it as arm exercise.
I once got a bad batch of bullets, very much undersized.
It wasn't apparent that they were until going to the range and finding they did everything but go straight.
And that was after loading 250 of them.
Lots of exercise that week.
Now I check.
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Old June 21, 2013, 12:38 PM   #10
Hundy
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Lesson learned

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement. I going to get a puller and pull them. I have learned a lesson. Check and re-check, then check again. I want to make sure I do not do this again. I fell very lucky to be a part of this forum. I can not thank everyone enough for there help and support. I feel a-lot better knowing I am not alone.

Thanks again

Jay
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Old June 21, 2013, 01:47 PM   #11
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An inertia puller is a good idea since other pullers can deform the projectile. With the recent shortage it's a good idea to save as many components as you can.

Recently I pulled 100 pieces of 30-50 year old 30-06 brass just for the projectiles. I don't have an 06 and a lot of the brass was hit and miss and some was brittle. Now I have an extra one hundred 180grain projectiles for my 30-40 krag and new winchester brass came yesterday.
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Old June 21, 2013, 01:59 PM   #12
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Is the pistol you would shoot these through a .357 Magnum, or a .38 Spl? Do you have a .357 Magnum that you could use? If so the Hogdgon Data indicates Maximum Load for the .357 Magnum, 158 grain is 4.8 grains, so your 4.0 grains is well under and safe to shoot in a .357 Magnum.

That being said, you need a bullet puller anyway if you reload.
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Old June 21, 2013, 02:33 PM   #13
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I always check every 5 rounds. Lately I been going every 10 rounds, but on a new load I go back to checking first 10 then every 5.

The extra time spent here is less time than having to use a bullet puller and disassemble the cartridge. My .308 rounds took about 10-15 hits on a none crimp. Then again I was afraid I was going to break the puller so I was being easy.

Spending $15 bucks on a puller is cheaper than a new gun and ammo that you can not use.

Quote:
An inertia puller is a good idea since other pullers can deform the projectile. With the recent shortage it's a good idea to save as many components as you can.

Recently I pulled 100 pieces of 30-50 year old 30-06 brass just for the projectiles. I don't have an 06 and a lot of the brass was hit and miss and some was brittle. Now I have an extra one hundred 180grain projectiles for my 30-40 krag and new winchester brass came yesterday.
Inertia pullers still damages hunting rounds. It bashes the lead tip down. But at least you could use them as plinking rounds versus using a puller that grabs the bullet and messing the bullet completely.
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Old June 21, 2013, 02:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
Is the pistol you would shoot these through a .357 Magnum, or a .38 Spl? Do you have a .357 Magnum that you could use? If so the Hogdgon Data indicates Maximum Load for the .357 Magnum, 158 grain is 4.8 grains, so your 4.0 grains is well under and safe to shoot in a .357 Magnum.

That being said, you need a bullet puller anyway if you reload.
This is not necessarily sound advice. There is more space inside a .357 case than a .38 case - and space has a lot to do with pressure. It may not sound like much, but that .10" could make a difference. While 4.8 gr in a .357 is within acceptable limits, there is a reason why it is over the max load in a .38.

The frame may be able to handle the additional pressure generated in the smaller .38 case with the overcharge. I would not personally want to take that chance.
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Old June 21, 2013, 02:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Is the pistol you would shoot these through a .357 Magnum, or a .38 Spl? Do you have a .357 Magnum that you could use?

That was the first thing that came to my mind as well, and how I disposed of a batch of .38's that were a little too hot.

My RCBS Kinetic Bullet Puller (hammer) works great but pulling 50 is a lot of work!
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Old June 21, 2013, 03:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
This is not necessarily sound advice. There is more space inside a .357 case than a .38 case - and space has a lot to do with pressure. It may not sound like much, but that .10" could make a difference. While 4.8 gr in a .357 is within acceptable limits, there is a reason why it is over the max load in a .38.

The frame may be able to handle the additional pressure generated in the smaller .38 case with the overcharge. I would not personally want to take that chance.
But, wouldn't it be just like shooting a .38 Spl +P load in a .357 Magnum? Isn't it the limitations of the gun that is only designed for .38 Spl, and not cartridge case size.
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Old June 21, 2013, 04:58 PM   #17
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Quote:
But, wouldn't it be just like shooting a .38 Spl +P load in a .357 Magnum? Isn't it the limitations of the gun that is only designed for .38 Spl, and not cartridge case size.
No. A load intended for a cartridge with a certain case volume will burn at higher pressures when loaded into a case of smaller volume. Do I know that this will necessarily harm the firearm or the shooter? No - but the fewer guesses you make as a reloader, the safer you'll be.
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Old June 21, 2013, 06:24 PM   #18
mehavey
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This is where QuickLoad comes in handy. That 4.0gr of Clays under a 158HNDY in
a 38 Case at HNDY's OAL of 1.45" generates mid low 30's KSI


(BTW: Where'd you get that Clay's load under a 158HNDY to start with? I can't find
it (whether jacketed or cast) in common references other than Lyman's Cast Bullets,
And that's for an entirely different bullet and OAL.)

Last edited by mehavey; June 21, 2013 at 06:34 PM.
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Old June 21, 2013, 06:40 PM   #19
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I can't find where to get the QuickLOAD not even a used disk.
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Old June 21, 2013, 07:00 PM   #20
mehavey
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From these folks:



http://www.neconos.com/category/Software-2
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Old June 21, 2013, 09:19 PM   #21
Silver00LT
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Bookmarked...thank you. Be a nice treat to add to my reloading equipment.
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Old June 22, 2013, 10:54 AM   #22
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Quote:
Inertia pullers still damages hunting rounds. It bashes the lead tip down. But at least you could use them as plinking rounds versus using a puller that grabs the bullet and messing the bullet completely.
Inertial pullers do not have to damage the noses of bullets. Simply put a foam ear plug in the bottom of the puller.

""a puller that grabs the bullet"" that's called a collet puller. They often won't work on some handgun bullets, there has to be enough full-diameter side of the bullet to grip. Bullets like the 9mm FMJ have no full diameter above the edge of the case. You're only getting those out by using a hammer type puller.

Don't be afraid to hit them hard. You have to! The stored energy in the bullet caused by swinging the hammer, has to come to an abrupt stop to work. It also has to be swung hard to store enough energy to work. The heavier the bullet is, the better an inertial puller works. On the flip side, a 40 grain bullet in a .223 will take many hits to get it out

Collet types come from Hornady, the cam-lock, and RCBS which uses a threaded rod with a "T" handle on top. Both will work well for rifle with plenty of the driving surface on the sides of the bullet to grab. The Hornady is much faster and much more consistent. You DO have to have caliber specific collets for both.
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Old June 22, 2013, 12:16 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot
Is the pistol you would shoot these through a .357 Magnum, or a .38 Spl? Do you have a .357 Magnum that you could use? If so the Hogdgon Data indicates Maximum Load for the .357 Magnum, 158 grain is 4.8 grains, so your 4.0 grains is well under and safe to shoot in a .357 Magnum.
As schmellba99 pointed out, the case volume of the .357 Magnum is greater than the case volume of the .38 Special. Once you subtract the volume actually occupied by the powder, the amount of FREE volume at the time of ignition is even more different!. THERE IS DANGER THERE. I have no idea how much cushioning effect the free volume gives (if I did, I would probably be a ballistician) but that's why I use loading manuals.

If I had 5,000 rounds loaded like that, I might be tempted to prove the load in a .357 Magnum. I might consider loading 3.1 grains, 3.2 grains, 3.3 grains....3.8 grains and 4.0 grains and shoot them, looking for pressure signs. But for under 100 rounds? Not worth the trouble, especially with what it is likely to do to case life.

I have seen what a heavy charge does to case life. I had one batch of 50 .38 Special brass I loaded once to max pressure (still below giving signs of overpressure and within book recipes). They were OK when I shot them and I only loaded them hot once. A couple more loadings with light loads and I observed that the cases started to split at the mouth and even down the body. And this was in a Dan Wesson (DW revolvers have tight chambers). 15% case loss after 5 reloadings. I retired the entire batch. My other cases last much, much longer, so much that I have quit counting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimSr
My RCBS Kinetic Bullet Puller (hammer) works great but pulling 50 is a lot of work!
After the first dozen or so, you develop a technique and it goes pretty fast. I once had to pull 35 rounds. I was loading in continuous mode on a progressive press and ran my powder measure to empty, but I did not know when. I developed a technique of using the rebound of the puller from the end-grain of a 4x4 to assist and lightly holding the handle between thumb and forefinger at the point of impact. High speed and free rebound made light work of the job.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver00LT
Inertia pullers still damages hunting rounds. It bashes the lead tip down. But at least you could use them as plinking rounds versus using a puller that grabs the bullet and messing the bullet completely.
As Snuffy just pointed out, if you put a little piece of foam rubber (a disposable ear plug, or maybe just a cotton ball) in the bottom of the puller, the points are better protected. If you really wanted to get fancy putting down a ring of foam rubber would likely stop the bullet at the ogive instead of the tip.

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Old June 22, 2013, 03:05 PM   #24
Silver00LT
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Thanks for the foam trick!

I will be doing it.
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Old June 22, 2013, 08:36 PM   #25
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I'm with Mehavey on this one.

Hodgdon's 2008 printed manual data for the .38 Special with the 158 grain XTP showes only 3.0 start and 3.1 max for Clays powder. But, the pressures are in CUP, not psi, so that is a little hard to work with in QuickLOAD. So, I set-up QuickLOAD to give the SAAMI max "+P" peak pressure limit (18,500 psi)with 3.1 grains and the book COL of 1.455", then increased the charge to 4.0 grains. The result is about 27,000 psi. There is a LOT of margin between that and the SAAMI limit for the .357 Magnum, which is 35,000 psi.

So, if you have a Magnum gun to shoot those loads in, you should be fine.

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