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Old June 19, 2013, 02:12 AM   #26
Buzzcook
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Sounds like it was handled well.

As to "sorry", well no salesman is going to take the first no for an answer no matter how politely or rudely it's delivered.
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Old June 19, 2013, 03:19 AM   #27
dakota.potts
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Thank you for your opinions.

It's funny someone mentioned age, she is the one who is 18 and I am still a baby and will not be 18 until August. I do worry and that seems to be my way with everything. She is very smart and I don't give her enough credit but as a young, pretty woman out on her own with a lack of life experience and the tendency to think "bad things won't happen right here in my neighborhood" it concerns me. It would have been nice if she had pepper spray or a bowie knife or machete or firearm to back it up but she handled it and that wasn't necessary.

I was curious how other people would've reacted. I imagined from some posters here that the response would have been "Drawn my gun, shouted at him to get on the ground, and handcuffed him while I waited for the cops" (I kid ) but I wasn't sure what people would actually say. I lack life experience myself and I'm sure that over the years I'll experience things like this enough to know how to handle it just like my parents and their parents before them.
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Old June 19, 2013, 04:55 AM   #28
Glenn Dee
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I think your Girlfriend got lucky. I believe that she was in real danger. I think she did the best thing possible. Get to where there are people inside the store.

Lets look at the situation... Here is a young woman alone going shopping. Ok so she is alone, and no one to assist her, She's young and probably have some money, She's going shopping so she probably has some money. Panhandling in Florida is nothing new. So I'm just a pan handler looking for some money... I've got these neat looking palm things to grab folks attention, What? she says no?... no problem I've got to get just a little closer... "MISS I'm NOT GOING TO HURT YOU!" "I just need a little money to get by" I rush at her but she makes iy to the store... Dammit! Here comes that bi### again.. oh man she got a cop with her...I'm outa here.

Anytime a panhandler wont take no for an answer, he/she will probably push the issue to another level. Anytime a panhandler persue you... WARNING WILL ROBINSON WARNING! If a panhandler suggests that he wont hurt you?... In my humble opinion... he's threatening you... Why even bring that up if you dont want the thought in the victims head?

As a former police officer I find the officers reaction to be.... unacceptable. Obviously these officers have forgotten who they work for.
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Old June 19, 2013, 06:44 AM   #29
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I was curious how other people would've reacted.
Nobody here can tell you how they would have reacted. Nobody here was there.
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Old June 19, 2013, 06:54 AM   #30
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I personally would have probably bought one of his creations. I wish more of the homeless people around here made crafts to sell instead of just asking for money. But, I generally give them money anyway - at least when I have change or small bills.
If enough things go wrong any one of us could wind up there, and I like to think if it's ever me, my fellow man will help out.
The overwhelming majority of panhandlers are harmless - often a bit weird, but harmless none the less.

That being said, I think she handled the situation well.
Carrying pepper spray is a good idea in general, but she clearly didn't need it here.
Carrying a knife is a TERRIBLE idea. Fighting effectively with a knife takes a tremendous amount of training (more than fighting effectively with a gun), and requires that you're within grappling range of your adversary. Pulling a knife is more likely to escalate a situation than defuse it, and she doesn't want to be in a knife fight. Google images of people who've "won" a knife fight.
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Old June 19, 2013, 10:29 AM   #31
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This is a situation on how so many respond. "I dont carry pepper spray, not a firearm, not anything really. If bad things come my way I'll just find someone else to help bail me out. Surely there's a policeman standing within 10 feet of me at all times."
Simple reality is you're dead wrong. Yes get help if its available but many times its not. Many times if its you that needs help people are so quick to help only theirselves and not help who ever is in trouble. Everyone who is able needs to find ways and practice to be able to defend themselves WHEN trouble comes their way. Situation Awareness should be first to be aware but you need to carry and train with OC spray, have a gun on you conceiled and know how to use it , be proficient and be willing to do what is necessary to use it for yourself and others who are in need. If you choose not to then just stand there and take whatever comes your way and file a report to the police station after its over with -if you can.

Last edited by BuckRub; June 19, 2013 at 01:25 PM.
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Old June 19, 2013, 01:12 PM   #32
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A Few Ideas

First my Fiance carries a firearm and OC spray on a daily basis. She is ready to defend herself and has trained as much as many men. Se was not always that way however. Women are not naturally as aggressive as men. She went through an incident while alone at her parents house that changed her and she luckily was uninjured however inspired to train and learn. As to your specified scenario I will say the following.

1. Loud Firm NO! And a LEAVE ME ALONE! Will go a long way.
2. Do not take your eyes off of him period.
3. Have your hands on your method of defense (in this case OC would be better as a first line)
4. Get inside the store or into the crowd and report the incident to LE asap. (sounds to me like she shopped and only informed LE when she saw them on the way out)


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Old June 19, 2013, 02:42 PM   #33
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I don't know the training situation in FL - but getting training for such is well worthwhile. Quite a few outfits - Insights, FAS, Southnarc, KRtraining - offer comprehensive curriculum for such. Way beyond - the can I shoot'em stuff.

How to interact, defuse, escape, etc. before we get into knifing and shooting and spraying. Then how to do that.

Going through scenarios gives you a mental paradigm that enables you not to freeze up.

If you and her are truly interested - that's the best thing to do. As reported it went well but serious student of the art cannot avoid the scenario training.
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Old June 19, 2013, 03:11 PM   #34
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She asked the police officers if one of them could walk her to the car. One informed her he was busy and the other laughed at her and asked what she was so afraid of in the middle of the day He finally relented but walked far behind her.
Next time, get the badge number of that "public servant". Write a letter to the Chief, cc in the Mayor and maybe the local newspaper.

They work for us. When they forget it, it is time for a reminder. A rather forceful and public reminder usually lasts a bit longer.
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Old June 19, 2013, 09:03 PM   #35
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orionengnr,

Darned straight. That was disgraceful, in every sense of the word. Do your damned job, officer.
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Old June 19, 2013, 10:05 PM   #36
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Something similar happened to me at a local grocery store. As I was approaching the entrance, from the right, a man, about 6 feet away, turned and walked into my path. "Hey buddy, you got any change I can have for some smokes?" I told him no I didnt, and he stepped right in front of me and said "Aw come on man, I know you got some money". I quickly reached into my front pants pocket, and grabbed the grip of my P32. He saw this reaction, turned immediately on his heels and quickly got out of sight. He possibly was more of a criminal than the OPs subject. I dont know. He certainly was focused on my action, and reaction. I never drew the P32, but later thought to myself that reaching for my pistol was the perfect response.

Everyone needs to practice situational awareness. You dont have to be paranoid, but just glance the surroundings, keep your eyes moving, and know whats going on around you. I think the woman in the original post did the correct thing, given the circumstances, and the fact that she was unarmed. I think if I was her, and was frightened by this episode, it would be time to think about some type of protection, either a firearm and appropriate training, or a chemical spray.
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Old June 20, 2013, 06:16 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota.potts
When she went inside she was pointed to a couple of police officers who were already there after having made a different arrest. She asked the police officers if one of them could walk her to the car. One informed her he was busy and the other laughed at her and asked what she was so afraid of in the middle of the day He finally relented but walked far behind her.
Okay, let's understand this. A nice lady is pointed to two police officers who are there after having made an arrest. They're probably making sure that they have all the information that they need, names, addresses, dates of birth, witness statements, inventories of goods, everything that they need to successfully make the case.

I've been there, done that. It normally takes 30-45 minutes to make the case after you've made the arrest. If a cop has his notepad out, or if he's talking to witnesses, or if he's inspecting merchandise on a shoplifting case, he's busy doing the job he was sent to do.

We get it. Lots of time our job doesn't look like we're doing much, but in many cases, it's all important. Little things that make cases work. We've got to get it all down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orionengnr
They work for us. When they forget it, it is time for a reminder. A rather forceful and public reminder usually lasts a bit longer.
We sure do, all cops are public servants. However, that doesn't mean that we're available immediately to everybody, especially when we're already on a call. Would you go into a mechanic's bay and demand that he drop what he's doing to look at your problem? Would you walk into a teacher's classroom and demand that she stop what she's doing to help you with a concept? No, you wouldn't, but people walk up to police officers all the time and demand immediate service.

Sometimes the answer is, "I'm busy.", but no one wants to hear that. Granted, the cop could have been a little more diplomatic, and I'd have probably asked if he could wait five minutes until I've finished talking with someone else.

I've even had people, not satisfied with the answer I gave them, whip out a cell phone and call 911. Really? Is that the best you can do when you get an answer you don't like? Yeah, I work for you, but right now I'm helping this fellow. You're next! Just wait your turn.
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Old June 20, 2013, 06:34 AM   #38
PawPaw
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Originally Posted by Mr.James
That was disgraceful, in every sense of the word. Do your damned job, officer.
He was there doing his job. He was making an arrest, after having been dispatched to the location. She was safe, her life and limb were in no immediate danger, and the officer was busy on a call that his supervisors had sent him on. He was, in fact, doing his job.

It amazes me that normally rational people, having never been behind the badge, seem to know how to do a police officer's job. And they'll tell us how to do our job at every golden opportunity. I've got over 30 years behind the badge, highly trained, extra education (a Master's Degree), and I love being a police officer. I still like helping people. Even folks who think they know my job.
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Old June 20, 2013, 09:29 AM   #39
Vanya
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It was fine that the officers didn't drop everything to help her, but mocking her is unacceptable. That's the unprofessional behavior in this case.
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Old June 20, 2013, 09:45 AM   #40
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I agree that the one officer's response was a little less than professional.

Consider this -

"Officer, would you walk me to my car? I think there's a weirdo guy in the parking lot"

vs

"Officer, there's a strange guy in the parking lot talking about hurting people"


If I was in the parking lot and saw/heard what's being described here, happing to someone ELSE, I'd be calling the gendarmeres. The "I'm not going to hurt you" line, repeated twice, is a little too creepy for me.


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Old June 20, 2013, 09:59 AM   #41
BuckRub
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The officers did right by doing what they were there for, they should have maybe just told the lady to wait awhile. Good thing everything ended well for the woman but she needs some training for if and when things go south the next time.

Last edited by Vanya; June 20, 2013 at 10:15 AM. Reason: offensive speculation.
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Old June 20, 2013, 10:06 AM   #42
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Quote:
quote- vytoland do NOT engage in conversation with these interlopers. do NOT exchange ANY words. completely ignore them and move on.
^I agree with this.

I have lived in and visited places where you will get hassled by numerous aggressive panhandlers every trip down the sidewalk or to town. The people that live there just keep walking. that's how they survive and cope.
If you engage every worthless freak you come by you will not last.

I do think everyone needs a plain if the aggressor crosses the line and touches you or blocks your movement. A plain besides calling 911 or yelling "help", a plain that takes responsibility for your own survival and protection. what ever that might be gun, knife, ninja umbrella, ...
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Old June 20, 2013, 10:12 AM   #43
BuckRub
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Agree you sometimes have to help yourself. You don't always have a police officer or someone else to , to run to for help.
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Old June 20, 2013, 10:15 AM   #44
Oceanbob
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A lot of drama in this thread IMO.



This is a PanHandler who is trying to get some money by selling something. He reminded the 18 year old girl he 'isn't going to hurt you' because of his daily experience is people are (rightly) afraid of him. Especially a young girl.

He spends his days selling worthless crap to make money to eat and perhaps buy drugs. (who knows). I doubt he carries a GLOCK.

He has probably been warned before about approaching (scaring) people in various parking lots.

The girl did everything right. She was right to be concerned and she was right to ask for an escort to the safety of her car.

What concerns me is how pathetic our Country has become when you can't even go shopping at Wally World without suiting up for a zombie war.

(Tongue in cheek alert). After watching the movie PURGE I'am thinking a once-a-year house cleaning of our streets, parking lots, parks and under the freeway overpasses would do a lot of good.

Lesson learned: Always be prepared for any situation.
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Old June 20, 2013, 01:14 PM   #45
SgtLumpy
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Quote:

This is a PanHandler who is trying to get some money by selling something...

He reminded the 18 year old girl he 'isn't going to hurt you' because of his daily experience is people are (rightly) afraid of him...

He spends his days selling worthless crap to make money to eat and perhaps buy drugs. (who knows)...

I doubt he carries a GLOCK...
Four wild guesses on your part. You have absolutely no idea if any of those are accurate, they're just your optimistic guesses.

I didn't read a single post that suggested "suiting up for a zombie war".


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Old June 20, 2013, 02:46 PM   #46
kilimanjaro
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He's selling nothing. His offer of a trinket or craft is a ploy to get within your personal space. Unless he's got a boxful of goods to sell, then he's shamming.

He's approaching young girls because he wants one of them. He's speaking reassuring phrases such as "I'm not going to hurt you.", so he can continue to get within your personal space.

Most women alone avoid bums and panhandlers. Every bum and panhandler knows this and will approach a male or pair of males first. They feel more secure and are more likely to give out a dollar or two.

This panhandler was aggressive and certainly one to be avoided.
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Old June 20, 2013, 03:29 PM   #47
BuckRub
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Just a normal pan handler but given the opportunity anyone could do bad things. Glad it worked out for her this time but she needs some kind of plan and some training to go with it. If the right person comes along she's at their mercy until the let her go or other things happen.
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Old June 20, 2013, 04:27 PM   #48
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Four wild guesses on your part.
The opposite conclusions would still be wild guesses. To really explore the concept of wild guesses, take a look at the post below yours.

In more than half a century of helping panhandlers or telling them no, I've never had trouble. I've had trouble with carjackers and dope dealers, but not panhandlers.

While no amount of experience with panhandlers means they're all safe, there is a difference between a guy who choses to beg and a guy who choses to do armed robbery.

Most of society is two paychecks away from the street.
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Old June 20, 2013, 04:32 PM   #49
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In response to dayman:

One panhandler in Honolulu used to stand at an intersection near the grocery store where my ex would shop. He was harmless, but a scammer. My ex would shoot the bull with him when stopped at a red light. One day, when it was raining, she offered to loan him an umbrella. He declined, because he said people would give him more money if he looked pathetic.

A panhandler in Pagosa Springs, CO approached a friend and me. My friend felt bad for not giving him money, but he and I both knew two nice, Christian gentlemen who had offered this man construction or landscaping jobs, which he had declined.

In Thailand, adult panhandlers force small children to beg for them, a la Fagin. I would buy the kids some food, but would not give them money, as I felt success would only cause the adults to find more kids to exploit.

So, your intentions are good, but my experience leads me to believe you are only enabling scammers and con artists.

Otherwise, instead of asking for handouts, they would be asking for a hand up (such as a job).
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Old June 20, 2013, 04:36 PM   #50
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As to "sorry", well no salesman is going to take the first no for an answer no matter how politely or rudely it's delivered.
After her first response of "no thank you", he is no longer a salesperson but an assailant subject to arrest and imprisonment. Keep that in mind when you want to approach someone to sell them something. Just as to a rapist "NO" means "NO", anything else then is a criminal act. Assault, battery, reckless endangerment you name it, it WILL be used against you.

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