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Old July 23, 2013, 09:31 AM   #1
anon275
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Questions about flying with a revolver

Hey everyone,

I had a few questions about flying with guns.

I'll be flying from Florida to Alaska and I'll have a revolver with me. its in a hard plastic case which will be locked (even though with some rummaging you can still get the gun out) and I won't have any ammo with me. My question is, does anyone know the specifics of these two states when it comes to guns entering and leaving the state?

I bought this gun at a gun show as a face to face sale, so I have no permit at all, will this be a problem?

Also if there is a problem and they say I can't fly with it, will they mail it somewhere for me? the thing is I'm moving from Florida to Alaska and won't have an address in Florida anymore.

Thanks in advance for your help everyone!
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Old July 23, 2013, 10:06 AM   #2
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Alaska doesn't require carry permits, as of several years ago. They still offer permits at your option, for potential use in reciprocity or applying for a non-resident permit where the issuing state requires that applicant's have a license/permit from their home state, but the permit is not required in Alaska.

You should be good to go.
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Old July 23, 2013, 10:28 AM   #3
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Follow the rules and you will have no problem at all. At least half of the passengers arriving or leaving Alaska by air have a checked firearm. Florida airport are pretty used to it as well.

Lock the gun in a hard shell box using a lock that only you have the key or combination. Put this in your suitcase that you will check as baggage. If you lock the suitcase, use a TSA lock.

When you get to to the airport to check in, go to the line with a live agent, not the kiosk. Hand them your ID and ticket and say, "I need to declare a firearm in this bag I'm checking." They will have you sign a red tag that says it is unloaded. Put this in the suitcase with the hard box (not inside the hard box) and follow their instructions. The process varies at airports. Some thines they want to look inside the case. Sometimes TSA wants to look inside the case. Sometimes they don't. Allow an extra 15 more than usual for check in. Sometime you don't need it, but it doesn't hurt.

When you get to Alaska, pick up your bag and be on your way.
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Old July 23, 2013, 10:42 AM   #4
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Are you flying commercially, or on private or charter flights?

The reason I ask is that Canada happens to be located in between FL and AK. Unless you're a Canadian legal permanent resident or citizen with a PAL (which I suspect you'd have mentioned), or you're visiting Canada on official gov't or police business, the chances that you'll get legal permission to possess a handgun in Canada are nearly nil.

This is likely to effectively preclude taking the gun with you on private or charter flights, as not many private or charter aircraft have the necessary range to completely overfly Canada without making a fuel stop. If you're flying commercially and your itinerary has you touching the ground in Canada, I would ask the airline(s) some very careful and explicit questions about how this will work, particularly if your connecting flight is canceled and you wind up stuck in Canada overnight. You may be OK provided you don't try to retrieve the revolver from the baggage claim, but you should verify this before you get there! It would really suck if you have to surrender your revolver to the RCMP, and potentially spend a LOT longer in Canada than you planned, in a small concrete room with sparse furnishings, surrounded by a bunch of other folks who don't want to be there, if you catch my drift.
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Last edited by carguychris; July 23, 2013 at 10:56 AM. Reason: minor reword...
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Old July 23, 2013, 10:50 AM   #5
Jim March
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Assuming you're not stopping in Canada ("America's Hat!") you're good.
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Old July 23, 2013, 10:57 AM   #6
csmsss
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Quote:
(even though with some rummaging you can still get the gun out)
This is the part that I would be concerned with insofar as you are packing a firearm in a checked bag. IMHO it should take a lot more than "some rummaging" to retrieve the firearm without a key or combination to the lock. I'd recommend a better hard case.
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Old July 23, 2013, 11:02 AM   #7
maestro pistolero
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I am concerned that you claim the gun can be removed from the hard case with some "rummaging around" You need a secure case which doesn't allow anyone to pry up a corner and slide the gun out. They're cheap and available at any sporting goods stores, WalMart, etc.

Except for that, you have the correct advice from the other posts regarding checking/ declaring at the counter. Ammo needs to go in an appropriate container or original manufacturers packing. It can be in the gun case, but NOT in the gun. They want to see that the primers are protected from impact.

Look at the airline's policy online and print it out to have it with you. You would be amazed at how often airline personnel get their own company policy wrong. It's helpful to be able to whip it out if there is a disagreement.
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Old July 23, 2013, 11:29 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim March
...Canada ("America's Hat!")...
As a Canadian-American, I must officially protest this culturally insensitive remark. Canada is a land of stunning scenic beauty, it's the birthplace of hockey, it has a blue-water navy with at least 10 ships, there is hockey, the Chevy Camaro is built there, and the nation can lay claim to such stunning and important international luminaries as Carly Rae Jepsen, Justin Bieber, and Avril Lavigne, and even Robin Thicke if you stretch the rules a bit.
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Old July 23, 2013, 11:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
They will have you sign a red tag that says it is unloaded.
The red/orange tag does not have to be visible, and it's a good idea to ask them to zip it up inside the suitcase so as not to be a magnet for theft. It's also a good idea to ensure that you have a record of make/model/serial # in case anything happens.

Other than that, it's fairly routine.

Quote:
As a Canadian-American, I must officially protest this culturally insensitive remark.
I should point out that forum rules (#5f) prohibit discussions of race.
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Old July 23, 2013, 12:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
The red/orange tag does not have to be visible, and it's a good idea to ask them to zip it up inside the suitcase so as not to be a magnet for theft.
Right. As I understand it, federal regs say the suitcase that contains the firearm case CANNOT have any external indication of the gun. Also, I try to get them to tape the declaration tag onto the outside of the firearm(s) container, so that they don't become separated inside the luggage. I want them to KNOW it's been declared.

Again, airline agents can be all over the map in terms of what they think their policy is. I've been told one thing on an outbound, and another on my return more times than I can count, only to be told a third version on my next flight out. Print out their policy.
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Old July 23, 2013, 12:52 PM   #11
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Here are the TSA regulations about flying with firearms: http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-informat...and-ammunition

From the TSA regulations:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA regulations about flying with firearms

The firearm must be in a hard-sided container that is locked. A locked container is defined as one that completely secures the firearm from being accessed. Locked cases that can be pulled open with little effort cannot be brought aboard the aircraft.
Emphasis mine. The regs mean you can't use it if you can pull it open with a little work.

Here is the federal law that governs taking guns aboard aircraft: http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/1544.203

From the federal law:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 49 CFR 1544.203

(f) Firearms in checked baggage. No aircraft operator may knowingly permit any person to transport in checked baggage:
(1) Any loaded firearm(s).

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless—
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing before checking the baggage that any firearm carried in the baggage is unloaded;

(ii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container;

(iii) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination; and

(iv) The checked baggage containing the firearm is carried in an area that is inaccessible to passengers, and is not carried in the flightcrew compartment,.
(3) Any unauthorized explosive or incendiary.
(g) Ammunition. This section does not prohibit the carriage of ammunition in checked baggage or in the same container as a firearm. Title 49 CFR part 175 provides additional requirements governing carriage of ammunition on aircraft.
And here is the best place to START your quick search into the laws of the states where you'll be traveling: www.handgunlaw.us

Happy travels.

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Old July 23, 2013, 04:25 PM   #12
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Pay particular note to paragraph (f)(2)(iii) of the above citation. It is often reported that TSA agents will ask travelers for the key or combination to the locked case containing the firearm. In fact, last time I looked the TSA FAQ page advised travelers to turn over the key or combination upon request.

DOING SO IS A FELONY.

Pax cited the law. The law says that "only the individual checking the baggage retains the key or combination." That's pretty clear. If an agent gives you any trouble, ask for a supervisor.

And look up that law, print several copies, and carry them with you.
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Old July 23, 2013, 05:26 PM   #13
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I have a small laminated copy of that section of the law taped to the underside of my gun case, with that subsection highlighted -- and I do not ask for a supervisor. I smile politely, indicate that I intend to comply with the law while respecting their regulations, and ask for a sworn law enforcement officer to oversee their search when they open the suitcase.

Last time I did so, the regular TSA person immediately called the supervisor, even before I'd finished my first sentence. I apologized for making that person's day harder, and repeated my intention to follow the law.

When the supervisor arrived and asked what was going on, I smiled politely, indicated my intention to comply with the law while respecting their regulations, and requested a sworn law enforcement officer to oversee the search since they were unwilling to bring my suitcase back to me for me to unlock it.

The TSA supervisor scowled and snapped, "Ma'am, are you familiar with the term, 'implied consent'? We cannot allow you to fly if we do not inspect your luggage."

I smiled politely, again indicated my intention to comply with the law while respecting their regulations, and requested a sworn law enforcement officer to oversee the search. Still polite and in a tone of genuine inquiry, I asked, "Are you a sworn law enforcement agent?"*

The TSA supervisor replied testily, "Well, what will you do if a law enforcement officer isn't available!??" I smiled politely and said we could cross that bridge when we came to it, but until then, I intended to comply with the law while respecting their regulations. Then I stood there and waited patiently for an answer. He called the LEO.

When the LEO arrived, she asked if I was refusing to allow a search. I smiled politely and said, "Not at all. I do intend to comply with federal law while respecting TSA regulations. It's too bad the layout of this airport isn't set up to allow us all to easily follow the law as it is written, but I understand you all have a job to do. So I would like you, as a sworn law enforcement agent who can legally possess firearms, to oversee the search process, since TSA regulations will not allow them to bring my suitcase back to me for me to oversee the search in person -- and since the law does not allow me to hand the key over to any other person in the airport. Are you willing to do that for me?"

The TSA supervisor was livid, and the TSA line agent appeared equally so. The LEO was simply ... puzzled. All three consulted each other by eye, and after a little more back and forth (all with a calm, sweet, relaxed smile on my face I should add!), they agreed that was a reasonable solution. The TSA people weren't happy about it, but they all accepted it and the three disappeared together into the back room where my suitcase was located.

The suitcase, I should add, did not just have "a firearm" in it. It had two firearms, about a hundred rounds of ammo, and four dummy guns, and several baggies full of dummy rounds, and thousands of dollars of high end holsters I show people in my classes.

It also had my name tag as a Presenter at the Rangemaster Tactical Conference sitting on top of the pile of other stuff, along with some business cards. Though I hadn't done so on purpose, it had a good effect too, because when the group returned, they were all smiles and conciliatory. The LEO said, "Ma'am, we didn't realize you were a professional..." (I smiled politely and thanked her, although inside I was gritting my teeth and wailing with grief at what has become of my country. What difference should that have made!!!?)

Before they returned, they had certainly been gone long enough to look up the law I had thoughtfully printed out, laminated, and taped to the underside of the gun case. You know, just in case someone requested a key who wasn't legally allowed to have it.

After all that, the TSA supervisor apologized profusely -- in front of the LEO and in front of his own supervisee! -- and told me he'd never seen that federal law before, and that he was very grateful I'd drawn his attention to it as he would see to it that some changes were made to the layout and firearm-luggage search routines at that particular airport, if he could. Whether he followed through on that or not, I have no idea -- but it seemed very likely. My sense was that he's basically a good guy who came over armored up and expecting the passenger to be a confrontational jerk who didn't know an arse from an elbow. I think I really threw him off balance when I turned out to be a polite, friendly person who did in fact know the law and wasn't trying to make anyone's day harder but was absolutely determined to follow the law as written.

I love having the facts on my side, and being old enough and brave enough to stand on those facts when needed. Twasn't always so.

pax


* Note: TSA agents are not sworn LEOs, and some are even Prohibited Persons. For this reason, I don't want a single, unsupervised agent with the key to my firearm. If the agents insist on opening the case while I am not present, in contradiction to federal law, I at least want it opened by a sworn LEO who is definitely legal to possess firearms, and who is in the presence of several other people when the case gets opened.
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Old July 23, 2013, 06:11 PM   #14
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pax
...and told me he'd never seen that federal law before, and that he was very grateful I'd drawn his attention to it as he would see to it that some changes were made to the layout and firearm-luggage search routines at that particular airport, if he could.
The most amazing things is that the training for that law (if not the actual law itself) is beaten into the heads of any TSA officer who does their required training, at least monthly.

It's been awhile now so I don't specifically remember the frequency but I can tell you that the training on handling declared firearms, and certainly including that NO ONE opens the container with the firearm except the owner, begins very early and continues regularly through-out their employment.

I guarantee, there's NO possible way that anyone reaches a rank of supervisor without being crystal clear on that regulation.
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Old July 23, 2013, 07:30 PM   #15
BigD_in_FL
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Quote:
I bought this gun at a gun show as a face to face sale, so I have no permit at all, will this be a problem?
Why do you think this would be a problem in any way?
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Old July 23, 2013, 08:08 PM   #16
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Here's the link to the current TSA web information on flying with a firearm. It has changed, and it is open to misinterpretation as written (IMHO). It says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA
  • TSA must resolve all alarms in checked baggage. If a locked container containing a firearm alarms, TSA will contact the airline, who will make a reasonable attempt to contact the owner and advise the passenger to go to the screening location. If contact is not made, the container will not be placed on the aircraft.
  • If a locked container alarms during screening and is not marked as containing a declared firearm, TSA will cut the lock in order to resolve the alarm.
  • Travelers should remain in the area designated by the aircraft operator or TSA representative to take the key back after the container is cleared for transportation.
It isn't clear in the third paragraph which key is being referred to. It is my opinion that this refers to the key for the outer suitcase, NOT the key to the locked gun case. Again, irrespective of what the TSA puts on their web site, the law says that only the traveler shall retain the key or combination to the gun case.

Link: http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-informat...and-ammunition
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Old July 23, 2013, 09:29 PM   #17
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wow! first of all I want to say: THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR COMMENTS AND STORIES! what a great welcome to this forum

I definitely always knew how serious all of this was but everyones stories have really got me gearing up for a real legal throwdown, hopefully I'll be 100% prepared.

Most flights I've seen stop at Seattle before making the trek up to Anchorage so I don't think I'll need to worry about Canada.

And this is funny about the law, it says "Locked cases that can be pulled open with little effort cannot be brought aboard the aircraft."
My case definitely doesn't take minimal effort, you really to pull and tug to get whatevers' in there, out, so since the rule is so open to interpretation it seems I'm at the whims of whatever TSA agent I get, and how good his day is going... if he's having a bad day he might work harder to get the thing out :-/ a bit of a gamble I suppose.

As for being worried about having a permit. I grew up in NY and was taught from a very young age that guns are very difficult to get and require a lot of paperwork and yadda yadda, so I move to Florida and it just blows my mind that you can walk into a gun show and walk out with a handgun with absolutely zero paperwork, I had to see for myself :P and it STILL perplexes me, so I was just wondering if flying required one. It probably helps also that I'm moving to a state with even more lax gun laws than Florida no complaints there!

and on top of all of this when I get to the airport, I'll have a very frustrated frantic cat with me! can't wait!!! :P
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Old July 23, 2013, 10:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anon275
And this is funny about the law, it says "Locked cases that can be pulled open with little effort cannot be brought aboard the aircraft."
No, the law does not say that. The TSA web site says that. That is not the law. The law doesn't address that. Do not confuse the law (Pax's link) with the TSA advisory web site (my link).

However, the intent of the law is obviously to prevent anyone from being able to remove the firearm from the locked case. If your case can be manipulated such that the firearm can be removed without unlocking it, my advice is ... don't use that case. As has been noted, you can buy a hard case that accepts a small (non-TSA) padlock for about ten bucks at any gun shop. Your firearm is going to be out of your sight and out of your control for the duration of the flight. Many baggage handlers have keys that open TSA locks, so don't assume that your suitcase will not be opened. If someone opens the suitcase and can remove the firearm without unlocking the gun case ... bye-bye firearm. Or, if a screener notices that the gun can be wrestled out of the case -- you won't board the aircraft. That'll make you and Kitty very unhappy.
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Old July 23, 2013, 10:50 PM   #19
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learning to fly....

There are some good posts here.
In general, I'd advise checking www.handgunlaw.us www.gunlawguide.com www.knifelawsonline.com www.NRA.org .
As posted, check the TSA and FAA websites. I'd also check the private airline SOPs.
You may want to print them out & carry them with your other travel documents.
I do not travel often but I was in AK last summer. The TSA waited until the last minute to tell me they couldn't open my bags for a random security screening: 130am PST.
When you go, leave yourself plenty of time, be polite & make sure your firearm is unloaded. Speak clearly too.
In the summer of 2007 I used air travel to go from Florida to PA. I took my Ruger GPNY .38spl revolver in a Docksil plastic case with a small cable TSA approved security lock.
The airline, Southwest, was smooth & professional. I do think I may have sat next to a FAM on the flight though,

I'd add that you may want to take a small amount of CLP or gun oil. You may want to clean or oil it in Alaska.

Clyde
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Old July 25, 2013, 03:26 PM   #20
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If the cat is riding in the cabin with you, and not being checked in baggage, you may wish to ask your Vet about ACE (acepromazine). A small dose before boarding might make the trip less taxing.

Note I am not a Vet or in any way qualified to give medical advice, but I know what an anxious cat sounds like and having one in your possession on an airliner might make you very unpopular.

I've flown commercial once since 9/11 and did not have a firearm with me. I knew they would confiscate my pocket knife so I left it at home. All the advice you've gotten about dealing with TSA and the airline seems "great to know" and worth saving for future reference.
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Old July 25, 2013, 03:58 PM   #21
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SEATAC; Seattle WA, TSA; firearms....

I read a recent item on www.seattletimes.com that the security officials & LE officers at Seattle's SEATAC airport complex only charge passengers/visitors with gun offenses approx 50% of the time, .
They seem to take the "I left my 6" barrel N frame .44 in my tolietry case" excuse a lot.

Really, I can see how a few weapons or firearms can be mishandled, but do not take any chances. Jail is not the place to end up when you go to a airport.
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Old July 27, 2013, 07:16 PM   #22
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My experience is this. You have three entities to satisfy. The airline. Show up at least two hours early if flying out of a major airport. The Jurisdiction your flying out of. Florida is no problem. The TSA The firearm must be declared to the airline and in a locked hard side box. The tsa will sometimes examine, and sometimes not. I find it best to use a tsa lock to keep them from destroying your is they decide to inspect it. They used to tag luggage containing a firearm, then ground crews know what luggage to lose. I believe this has changed. The jurisdiction you are flying into. If you are authorised to posses a handgun you just pick up your checked baggage.
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Old July 27, 2013, 09:43 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Dee
The tsa will sometimes examine, and sometimes not. I find it best to use a tsa lock to keep them from destroying your is they decide to inspect it.
On the outer suitcase, or the gun case? Remember, the federal law expressly states that the traveler must retain the key or combination to the locked gun case. Do NOT use a TSA lock for this, because if you do every TSA agent and half the baggage handlers in the world has a key that will open it.

Quote:
They used to tag luggage containing a firearm, then ground crews know what luggage to lose. I believe this has changed.
The law does not allow them to tag luggage containing a firearm. A card is placed inside the suitcase at check-in, confirming that the firearm has been declared. There isn't supposed to be anything on the exterior of the checked luggage to indicate that there's a firearm inside.
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Old July 28, 2013, 10:31 AM   #24
maestro pistolero
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said, NO TSA locks on the firearm container.
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Old July 28, 2013, 04:39 PM   #25
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A friend who travels with long arms internationally (case is hard to hide), places some stickers on his case from surveying equipment makers so as to make it look like he has a survey level or theodolite in the case and not his African DG rifles - seems to have worked so far for many decades -something to consider IF you ever decide to travel with a long arm
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