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Old June 19, 2013, 01:08 PM   #51
spacecoast
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if you can avoid loading .44Magnums or .22LR's in your .45Colt, or .270's in your ..30-06, you can keep heavy loads out of weaker .45's.
I think most of us can figure that out, the point is that creating heavy .45 Colt loads that readily chamber in a wide variety of both new and old guns is a riskier endeavor than just about any other cartridge.

Ensuring that such loads are properly labeled (and continue to be properly labeled) and well understood for what they are, even after you are dead or otherwise incapable of shooting them, is a fairly sobering thought. I'm not sure I would to put that continuing responsibility on my kids/grandkids or whoever inherits my guns and ammo inventory in the event of my untimely death. Maybe your will should include a "Be sure to destroy or manually disassemble all my .45 Colt reloads" clause.
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Old June 19, 2013, 01:23 PM   #52
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my local gun builder & I always talk about that when ever we chamber a new custom gun ( rifle or handgun ) plus for me, my FIL was my mentor, & all my reloaded ammo has a full recipe & ballistic info on each & every box the cartridges I load are in...

it's funny the turn this thread has taken ( I'm sure as was directed by the OP ) that we are talking about "versatility" & yet are talking about a magnum in the 1st place...

hey... I love the boomers as much as the next guy, but big bear medicine does not make for a versatile cartridge, in fact the bigger & more powerful we get, the further away from truly versatile we get...

I still stand by my 38 / 357 suggestion, but, IMO the poster that thought 9mm, is probably just about as close... however I do hold the opinion, that a revolver cartridge is actually more versatile, as load levels can go from pop gun to the maximum the gun can safely handle without effecting the function...

unfortunately I think this thread started as a chest thumping topic, & has continued down that path... & has absolutely nothing to do with versatility
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Old June 19, 2013, 01:57 PM   #53
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I think most of us can figure that out, the point is that creating heavy .45 Colt loads that readily chamber in a wide variety of both new and old guns is a riskier endeavor than just about any other cartridge.
It's no different. IMHO, this is a non-issue for anyone who has actually put any thought or effort into it. Only seems to be a problem for those that never have. Which is quite typical.

One can use any of the following or any combination thereof:

Different head stamps (not unlike the .270/.30-06 reference)

Color coded boxes.

Bullets that are too long to chamber in lesser guns.

Specially labeled boxes.

Mark your case heads with a marker.

Personally, I use color coded boxes with a warning label.

It's no different than those "rifle only" .32-20 and .44-40 loads that were marketed a hundred years ago for 1892's but NOT 1873's. Unfortunately, much of the current generation of shooters depends on the nanny state to take care of them. Rather than independent thinking and self reliance.
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Old June 19, 2013, 02:39 PM   #54
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Not trying to be argumentative, but I would point out that several of your methods have issues when it comes to the possibility of your ammo outliving you:

Quote:
Different head stamps (not unlike the .270/.30-06 reference)
This seems to be a pretty subtle method that may not jump out to someone examining your loads. Note to heirs... "all my Colt .45 reloads in nickel-plated Federal brass should only be shot in my Ruger revolvers made after 19xx".

Imagine the year is 2040... "Joe found these rounds that his Grand-dad made up with big 300 grain .45 Colt bullets that chamber perfectly in Jamar's beat-up old JUDGE. Let's head out to the range and finish these bad boys off!"

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...1&postcount=10

Quote:
Color coded boxes.
Again, what/where is the magic decoder ring for different colored boxes? Just because you understand your system doesn't mean everyone else does, or wants to learn.

Quote:
Bullets that are too long to chamber in lesser guns.
... and you can guarantee they won't chamber in any gun lacking sufficient steel to handle them, even those you have never seen or heard of? Longer than the chamber on a JUDGE?



Quote:
Specially labeled boxes.
This is the most straightforward and reliable way of doing it, assuming someone doesn't play a trick on you or your heirs and dump all your ammo on the floor or worse, switch the contents of a few boxes just for fun right before a range trip.

Quote:
Mark your case heads with a marker.
Same issue as with the colored boxes. Markers also tend to fade over time.


I own several Ruger semis and think they generally do a great job building reliable, quality guns, but the more I think about it, the more I think they (and Freedom Arms, etc.) made a mistake in adapting their heavy iron for the .45 Colt given the number of old (and new, yet weaker) guns out there. Moving up to the .454 Casull (only) would have been a better choice IMHO.

Last edited by spacecoast; June 19, 2013 at 03:01 PM.
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Old June 19, 2013, 03:03 PM   #55
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Sorry my friend but shooters have been doing this for a few decades now and I have yet to hear of such catastrophic misunderstandings. Ever read about Chicken Little?

If you are really THAT afraid of such farfetched circumstances I suggest you sell all your guns, live in a bubble, stick your thumb in your mouth and seek psychiatric attention.

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Quote:
I own several Ruger semis and think they generally do a great job building reliable, quality guns, but the more I think about it, the more I think they (and Freedom Arms, etc.) made a mistake in adapting their heavy iron for the .45 Colt given the number of old (and new, yet weaker) guns out there. Moving up to the .454 Casull (only) would have been a better choice IMHO.
As a relatively neophyte handloader and casual shooter who lists all their guns in their sig line, perhaps what you need is to further your education. The folks who have been there and done that for a long time don't typically appreciate being told how wrong they are by somebody without a clue.
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Old June 19, 2013, 03:15 PM   #56
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Everyone simmer down, please...
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Old June 19, 2013, 03:17 PM   #57
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The folks who have been there and done that for a long time don't typically appreciate being told how wrong they are by somebody without a clue.
When you don't like the message, shoot down the messenger. Carry on, Mr. Self-Proclaimed Expert, and good luck. Maybe someone will take the time to introduce you to the the possibility that you might be wrong, apparently nobody's ever bothered to do that. Too Bad.
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Old June 19, 2013, 03:35 PM   #58
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Everyone knock it off.

NOW.
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Old June 19, 2013, 03:41 PM   #59
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When you don't like the message, shoot down the messenger. Carry on, Mr. Self-Proclaimed Expert, and good luck. Maybe someone will take the time to introduce you to the the possibility that you might be wrong, apparently nobody's ever bothered to do that. Too Bad.
I'm not a self-proclaimed expert but WE have been doing this for decades. That is an irrefutable fact. This is also not the first time we've heard nonsense like this. The things you're questioning have been in practice by a lot of shooters for a long time. The question is not whether or not I'm wrong, it's whether or not your fear is justifiable. History tells us no.

There is countless documentation for real, credible authority on this issue. Starting with John Linebaugh.

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Old June 19, 2013, 04:09 PM   #60
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Everyone knock it off.
Sorry Mike, I just think it's important to point some things out that seem obvious to me (and which have yet to be refuted). I had no intent of getting personal, but when provoked and subjected to a variety of derogatory names and allusions I am not afraid to shoot back, so to speak. I'm sure Mr. NF45 is a very experienced shooter and reloader, but I also take my shooting and handloading seriously, and everyone is capable of learning something (I think), even if it's just about themselves.
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Old June 19, 2013, 04:49 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by spacecoast
I own several Ruger semis and think they generally do a great job building reliable, quality guns, but the more I think about it, the more I think they (and Freedom Arms, etc.) made a mistake in adapting their heavy iron for the .45 Colt given the number of old (and new, yet weaker) guns out there. Moving up to the .454 Casull (only) would have been a better choice IMHO.
How are you going to "move up" to the .454 Casull (only) and exclude the .45 Colt?

Kind of like saying you're going to somehow chamber a gun in .357 mag and exclude .38 Specials?

What keeps you from shooting the shorter round?
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Old June 19, 2013, 05:05 PM   #62
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How are you going to "move up" to the .454 Casull (only) and exclude the .45 Colt?
I believe he means to build 454 Casull guns only and not build the super strong 45 Colts in hopes that people wouldn't load 45 Colt cases to 50k.
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Old June 19, 2013, 05:20 PM   #63
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How are you going to "move up" to the .454 Casull (only) and exclude the .45 Colt?

Kind of like saying you're going to somehow chamber a gun in .357 mag and exclude .38 Specials?

What keeps you from shooting the shorter round?
EDIT - Mavracer was quicker on the draw, but if you prefer the Charles Dickens version of what he said, read on!

What he was trying to say was simply "why should we load way up a vintage cartridge, to where many guns are no longer safe for the round, instead of introducing a new one (with a longer case)." In essence, if Ruger only loads are just that, Ruger only, then why not develop a new cartridge or in this specific case, chamber the 454 sooner than they did to allow for the need of high pressure 45 loads? Some of Ruger building their 45 colt revolvers super strong was not intented to allow for much higher pressure loads that many shoot through them, but rather to ensure the durability and longevity of their guns.

Of course, you can physically shoot 45 colt in a 454 and 38 special in the 357 magnum regardless. The point was that perhaps they could have (or should have) made 454s instead of over engineered 45 colt guns to begin with. I understand to some they're not over engineered, but when they can handle loads that most other 45 colt guns cannot, I think at that point they are over engineered. Its kind of like with older S&Ws, would you rather have a 38/44 Outdoorsman (N frame 38 special) or a 357 magnum? You can load either way up, but the 357 will most likely handle high pressure loads, for a longer period of time, because it was specifically made for high pressure rounds. The 45 Colt vs 454 is the same question or suggestion, if you will.

454s are heavier than most 45 colt revolvers. Some prefer that tradeoff and of course some do not. With 45 colt rounds, its kind of like there are two completely different loads, with the same exact outside dimensions. The "Ruger only" 45 colt loads are in essence +P+, or at the very least, +P. Some people like to do that, and that is how all of these rounds such as 357 mag, 44 mag and 454 casull were developed. I think Spacecoast was saying or rather, implying: "why not play with the rounds which were made to be higher pressure, and play with the guns designed to shoot them." I suppose then you have to figure platform issues would arise IE someone prefers a Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk in 45 colt to SA 454 because perhaps the Ruger is smaller or lighter, or anything. Perhaps they like the Ruger 45 Colt DA over 454 DA revolvers. Maybe they cannot afford a 454 or 460, so they shoot higher pressure 45 colt rounds.

The big point is this: there is something for everyone, and to each, their own.
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Old June 19, 2013, 05:51 PM   #64
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Sorry my friend but shooters have been doing this for a few decades now and I have yet to hear of such catastrophic misunderstandings.
One of my shooting buddies had the practice of loading 38 special cases to Mag pressures, He had some of his ammo stolen out of his truck and it ended up blowing up the guys 38. believe it or not the guy had the nerve to sue my buddie for damages. The case ended up getting dismissed but still cost my buddie almost $2000 in lawyer fees.
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Old June 19, 2013, 06:30 PM   #65
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I believe he means to build 454 Casull guns only and not build the super strong 45 Colts in hopes that people wouldn't load 45 Colt cases to 50k.
Exactly, by building the super-strong .45 Colts and contributing to the creation of +P+ ammo you put everything else not in the same class at risk (in this case many tens of thousands if not more) guns, many of them historic. And the risk isn't limited to old guns, the Judge and New Vaquero are also not strong enough to handle the "Ruger-only" loads as I understand.

If Ruger or someone else decided to do this with .38 specials or .44 specials (which can hold a LOT more powder than they are typically loaded to) then I'm sure there would be a lot more guns blown up and a public outcry. Yes, there are +P .38 special loads available, but they are only marginally stronger than standard pressure ammo and usually only increase wear on rather than blow up old guns. The difference is nowhere near the difference between "regular" and Ruger-only .45 Colt loads.
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Old June 19, 2013, 06:55 PM   #66
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While I like ...and have a few S&W revolvers in .44 mag ( model 29's and 629's in 3", 4", 6" and 8 3/8" barrels .....its an "N Frame" caliber...and that alone hurts its versatility...

I think the .357 Mag is far more versatile....as evidenced by the number of S&W K, L and N frames made in .357 mag....and I find them a lot more versatile for Defense.....and just plinking....( and I have .357 mag caliber in a new Henry Big Boy lever action rifle as well as a Freedom Arms single action revolver...)...

I'm not a handgun hunter...so I don't need a handgun for big game / and while I might lean toward carrying a .44 mag when fly fishing in Alaska ...or Northwestern Montana in Grizzly country ..../ the rest of the time a .357 mag will do the job.

.357 mag offers much faster follow up shots ...especially with a 158gr bullet that is traditional in that caliber..../ much faster than the same gun with a 240gr bullet in .44 mag ( say in a pair of S&W N frames ...like a model 27 4" in .357 mag / and a model 29 4" in .44 mag )_.....

but just my opinion ..../ and I've been shooting and reloading for both the .357 Mag and .44 Mag off and on for almost 50yrs...( grandpa taught me to reload when I was about 10 yrs old ).../ these days I shoot about 500 rds a yr in .44 mag .....and about 500 a month in .357 Mag...
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Old June 19, 2013, 08:39 PM   #67
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Sorry spacecoast that I apparently misunderstood your point. I thought about it in context of practicality more so than the safety of the pre existing guns.

My instinct is to rarely speak for someone else, I should stick to it.
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Old June 19, 2013, 08:59 PM   #68
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The .44mag +p is a savage load anyway. Without moving up to the 500WE or 460SW, I don't see the gain of the bigger bores for 99.9% of our shooting.

I will qualify that statement by saying that I'm tired of seeing guys at the range trying to shoot 454s and 460s, etc and being overgunned. It's not about testosterone, it's about hitting what you are aiming at (every time!) Also, them HUGE guns are loud! I had to leave a range because my foam earplugs worn under my headphones were just not enough. That seems excessive somehow .
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Old June 19, 2013, 11:07 PM   #69
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Exactly, by building the super-strong .45 Colts and contributing to the creation of +P+ ammo you put everything else not in the same class at risk (in this case many tens of thousands if not more) guns, many of them historic. And the risk isn't limited to old guns, the Judge and New Vaquero are also not strong enough to handle the "Ruger-only" loads as I understand.
You really need to educate yourself on this subject.

Ruger never intended for anyone to load their .45's heavier than standard and has NEVER endorsed or condoned such practices. When Ruger first introduced their large frame .45Colt, 42yrs ago, there were no other heavy framed .45's on the market and certainly no heavy loads. Those came after. While Dick Casull was experimenting with heavy .45Colt loads in custom built Colt SAA's in the 1950's, the .454 was not offered in a factory revolver until 1983. The very expensive Freedom Arms, which eventually became the model 83. It was a wildcat until 1998.

I should have to tell you that there is a HUGE difference between 32,000psi "Ruger only" loads and 65,000psi .454Casull loads. Since you seem to know so much and I'm the idiotic "self proclaimed expert who should entertain the possibility of being wrong", I shouldn't have to explain to you that in a Blackhawk platform the .454 requires a heavy five-shot cylinder, bank vault tight lockup, a blocked action and very precise tolerances. So Ruger basically would've had to build a new gun from the ground up and build it tighter than anything in their catalog to make your theoretical proposition a reality. The six-shot Super Redhawk was only possible by lowering the pressures of factory loads to 50-55,000psi, an exotic and highly elastic stainless steel alloy and the gun's robust lockup.

So no, Ruger couldn't have just offered the guns in .454Casull. It's nowhere near the realm of possibility but what do I know.


Quote:
...you put everything else not in the same class at risk (in this case many tens of thousands if not more) guns, many of them historic.
And surely you have evidence to support this silly theory? If Ruger has been building these guns for 42yrs, surely there is something to support your nonsense? I'm sorry, people really don't like this word but your argument is coming from ignorance.
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Old June 19, 2013, 11:59 PM   #70
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The 44 magnum is a versatile caliber. To say it is the most versatile is subjective and not a claim I would make without reservations. I do believe an advantage it has is that it was designed to handle pretty high pressure loads from the outset. This means you have a wide range of loads that it will shoot safely. The .44 cartridge is large enough to handle most any large bore application but not so big that a normal cylinder can have 6 rounds and still an adequate amount of steel around each.

Since the .45 Colt was mentioned so many times in this thread, I will add this. When you put 6 rounds of .45 Colt in a standard cylinder, it leaves thinner walls than a .44 mag in the same platform. The .460 is a 5-shot at least in part to address the cylinder strength. I never owned a FA .454 but as I recall the one I looked at was a 5-shot as well. The standard load in a .45 Colt results in a pleasant, accurate shooting revolver that you don't have to worry about which gun it is being shot in. Heavy Colt loads are not as much fun. If I feel the need to go over 900 fps or so, I shoot the .460 as it is pleasant to shoot even above 2000 fps as it was designed to do just that. YMMV
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Old June 20, 2013, 05:41 AM   #71
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Quote:
Sorry spacecoast that I apparently misunderstood your point.
Not at all, your summary of

Quote:
"why should we load way up a vintage cartridge, to where many guns are no longer safe for the round, instead of introducing a new one (with a longer case)."
is pretty much the same thing, probably stated even better.

Quote:
Ruger never intended for anyone to load their .45's heavier than standard and has NEVER endorsed or condoned such practices.
I made (and make) no claim to know what Ruger's intentions were in doing what they did, only to comment on the situation as it now exists and the risks taken by those who make, use and inventory these loads were they to lose control of them by whatever means. There are a significant number of commercial and handmade 'Ruger-only" .45 Colt loads with the potential of blowing up lesser guns if misunderstood, mislabeled or misused. Not even all modern Rugers are capable of handling them, let alone the others.
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Old June 20, 2013, 06:06 AM   #72
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For a true plinking load in the .44mag, try a .433 roundball (122 grains) propelled by a few grains of Bullseye. Your little kids can shoot this and it they'll find it fun.
.433 is not the most common muzzleloading round ball out there but it is sold by Hornady and Speer.
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Old June 20, 2013, 07:08 AM   #73
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Another radically reduced load

That is a lot of fun, but for the .45 Colt: knock the primer out of fired cases, prime said case but do not size it, add two grains of bullseye and then seat a 335 grain LBT bullet backwards and simply press it in with your thumb until it stops.

I have no idea what the velocity is, but it recoils about like a 32 smith and Wesson, and only penetrates abou 2/10 of an inch into a pine 2X6 at a distance of 20 feet. Lots of fun, quiet and it has proven to be accurate at short range (50 feet and less) in all of the guns I have tried it in so far. We regularly shoot this load into a home made bullet trap when the weather is too unpleasant to be shooting outside. This, a few friends, add a couple of .22s and a pot of coffee and you have the makings of a great way to spend a blustery winter evening.

JW
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Old June 20, 2013, 07:48 AM   #74
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I do not understand the logic behind this thread. It seems that versatility of a particular caliber would be a moot point to this population of people who almost all have handguns in multiple calibers, that they would use for different applications instead of adapting the .44 to that purpose. Someone please explain it to me...it strikes me as "how many angles can dance on the head of a pin", argument.
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Old June 20, 2013, 07:56 AM   #75
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Had a "ringer" show up to our last bowling pin shoots. He was shooting a Model 29 with moderate loaded SWC's.

Took me out of that game right quick. I was shooting my 6 in Model 27, also with SWC's.

I went 5 for 5 only to look over to see him start loading for the next string. He wasn't even using speed loaders. Guess he didn't need fast reloads the way he shot.
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