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Old June 15, 2013, 11:16 AM   #1
JRLSH
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Inconsistant information

Gentlemen: Happy Fathers Day to all first off and then to my question. I value the input of all on this forum and did my research first before I asked this silly question. I have data concerning Winchester 760 powder but different manuals show different start/max load data. One manual by McPherson shows W760 start load with a 150gr. jacketed bullet as starting at49.0 gr to a max of 51.0 gr. I also have a Lyman manual that shows for W760 a start load of 51.0 gr to a max load of 57.0(compressed) for a 150 grain jacketed bullet. And my Lee manual shows a start load for a 150gr jacketed bullet to be 50.1 with a max of 50.1 gr. Granted these books have been around for a while(the Lee is the most current), however I went to Winchester/Hodgdon load data page and the only data for W760 powder was with a 155gr Sierra HPBT and the starting load was 48.0gr with a max load of 51.0gr. I know that I need to start loading at the minimum charge weights but this is all over the map. AND which brass is considered military in the .308 caliber? I tried to look this up and could not find much in the way of identifying which brass were military and which were not. Any help by the vets? Many thanks and Happy Fathers Day to all dads.
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Old June 15, 2013, 12:47 PM   #2
RC20
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Not a knock but big help so we can hlep you is to have you list your caliber first (308 I take from the end of the post and what specific rifle you are shooting and or asking about. I suspect semi auto but?

List those two first. Then onto the question and issues.


Some powders are also specific for Garrands to function right due to burn rate or other smei auto (308) and sometime they do not publish what the intent was.

In your case you have to watch the loads and burn rates if I am right about the semi auto vry carefully. Internet search can help there as I do not know this powder and 308 semi auto. Its very critical to the function and safety of the rifle (and a civilian semi auto may be more tolerant than the military, not my area) .

Sierra list a 46.7 to 50.2, but that is in a bolt action. It would not be a powder I would go with as its so narrow a small tech difference in a lot of things could throw it off (with the powder shortage I would in a bolt but not one I would choose normally)

Military brass is easy. Its going to have odd stampings and often a date.

Civilian brass is going to have an MFG, caliber but not a date.

LC is a common one these days for military brass and I have a 30-06 one with LC 52 (two digit dates) . HXP 77 etc (that Greek stuff, you will find a lot of European designation in some lots as they made Bunche of it and its got back here.

I could be wrong but I do not think they have the caliber on any of it (at least US calibers) .

Keeping in mind, 7.62 is too different form 5.56 to be confuses and they do not have 20 different calibers that use a 30 caliber bullet.

Again an internet search of head stamps would show you a good examples.

Search 760 powder for 7.62 and you should bet some more info (others will chime in here as well




A
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Old June 15, 2013, 01:14 PM   #3
howlnmad
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For the most part, the variations in load weights is because of different companies doing the testing and what they are using for a test reciever. And Lee does not do their own testing, they put a compilation together of others results.
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Old June 15, 2013, 01:19 PM   #4
Tom Matiska
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Biggest discrepancy in my books is 80's vintage Win Ball Powder data. Win refused to publish above 98% case capacity, others would compress. Win would also do the muzzle up/down, +140F/-40F thing. I considered their data the gold standard of safe starting loads.

My Speer used magnum primers for their ball loads, others didn't. Hodgdon #25 list different loads for mil and win brass, others didn't allow for the different case volumes. Data from bullet companies is specific to their 150gr bullet, but most data from powder companies is generic and there are many types of 150s out there.

Add to the mix that there is a much bigger variety of bullets today. Seating length being equal, lead free bullets and flex tip FTX's take up more case volume than their lead core counterparts. Only good answer is start low, work up slow, and start low again if you change any component.
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Old June 15, 2013, 02:18 PM   #5
JRLSH
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Ok you got me....

Once again the "duh" hat goes on me. Yes the caliber I was referring to (in my head again it looks like) was .308. And the rifle I am shooting it in is a Rem 700 with bull barrell. I do also want to load for my M1A also but I am finding out that what works well in a bolt does not necessarily work in a semi. (Thanks RC 20). Is there a rule of thumb on loading for a bolt vs. semi (ie: decrease 2% start or something like that?) Or is it trial and error- little emphasis on error. There is much to learn yet and you guys are a big big help....again Thanks.
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Old June 15, 2013, 03:18 PM   #6
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No problem, we get all wound up and shoot off (pun) and forget others are scratching their heads (trust me, my wife and I have to work hard on that!)

Also, always check data as we can make mistakes on typo and thats not good.

Ok, no rule of thumb, its just too powder specific and too many variations of burn rate to work that way. Takes a lot of research.

From personal experience I started to use TAC in 30-06 Bolt (desperation as I can't get more powder and keeping the 4350 etc for certain guns that like it).

Sierra lists 41 gr as a starting load (bolt).

Ram-shot says, well, its ok, but their starting was well above that as it was for Garand (they don't think its a good load for bolt). They say for the M1 though, Big Game? is better suited.

Back to, its all about burn rates with an M1 and correctly cycling and done right those fall in a safe category (no one is going to max out an M1 to take that elusive Bull Elephant in the back yard (grin).

So, for the M1 you have to get as much data as you can and if it was me, I would load in right between low and middle of that not the lower range. Let others more experienced of course give you better skinny. It may not cycle your gun at low.

For the TAC and the 30-06 in a bolt, 41 grains! That charge does not fill the case but shoots well in some guns (Model of 1917). People are leery of it because of the lot of empty case capacity, but if Sierra says ok, I am good with its not only ok, its a safe low ok for BOLT.

Just found the ref.

For my 168 load area (Ramshot lists 168 to 175 for this load in Garand.
45 min to 50. I would start at 46 or 47.

So, for bolt Horandy and Sierra are my go to (and throw in a few others to see what how the powder loads ranges look.

For M1, contact the powder mfg and or keep looking at the tables but always be sure its an M1 specific load. I don't have any books that tell me they used and M1 though. Sierra does give two tables for AR and Bolt in 223.

Military brass supposedly is thicker and if its not specific to military brass drop a grain or two. Me, I am weighing shells and military is less weight than civilian in some (only real way to tell is measure case capacity).

Thicker means a few less grains. If you are in the middle you don't have to worry about it.
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Old June 16, 2013, 10:24 AM   #7
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Data is offered with specific components, so DIFFERENT COMPONENTS GENERATE DIFFERENT LOAD DATA, ay?
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Old June 16, 2013, 12:02 PM   #8
Hundy
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Learning

First off Thank you, Happy Fathers day. It sounds like your question was answered. Just wanted to say no question is to silly. Like you I have the manuals and I check data online. Still I get good accurate information here. I have learned a-lot asking questions here and reading questions from others. I have actually been typing up a question and as I am typing it, and reading it, I realize what the answer is. My reloading has improved a-lot, from advice and information gathered here.

Good Luck

Jay
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