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Old January 8, 2005, 01:32 AM   #1
38splfan
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Star Bm Question.

I just picked up one of the J&G Sales Star Bm 9mm and have a quick question.

I am considering carrying it as a back up gun but have heard several people manage that they cannot be carried with a round chambered due to an oversized firing pin which creates a danger of accidental discharge.

I've also heard that replacement FP's can be purchased from Numrich which are slightly shorter and alleviate the problem.

Anyone have any other info on this issue?
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Old January 8, 2005, 10:24 AM   #2
liliysdad
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Condition 1, cocked and locked, or condition three, chamber empty. Never carry ANY Single action autogun chamber loaded, hammer down, for many reasons.

Edited to clarify

Last edited by liliysdad; January 8, 2005 at 11:55 AM.
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Old January 8, 2005, 11:49 AM   #3
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Give some reasons on why not carry a gun chamber loaded, hammer down.
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Old January 8, 2005, 11:54 AM   #4
liliysdad
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Number one, as was stated, its unsafe. On many guns, the BM included, the firing pin contacts the primer when the hammer is down. Number two, under stress, having to cock the hammer to bring the gun into action leads to all kinds of bad ju-ju.

Be advised, these statements only apply to single action autos, like the 1911, and the Star BM. Double action guns are a horse of a different color, as I m sure you realize.
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Old January 8, 2005, 01:17 PM   #5
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I'll second, that's good sound advice.
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Old January 8, 2005, 04:58 PM   #6
rogerwilco
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I agree somewhat, I see you edited you first post..to"single action". So you are saying from a safety standpoint, that there is less of a chance of the weapon going off accidentally with hammer cocked and locked than with the hammer down?
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Old January 8, 2005, 09:59 PM   #7
liliysdad
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Yes, most definitely. Cocked and locked is ten thousand times safer than Condition two.
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Old January 9, 2005, 10:23 AM   #8
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Please elaborate on your theory. Thanks
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Old January 9, 2005, 10:33 AM   #9
OBIWAN
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The grip safety (where applicable) and thumb safety on single action weapons are designed to keep the hammer from falling...not the firing pin from moving

Some newer designed SA's have some added devices to keep the firing pin from moving forward, but older designs are not considered "drop-safe" with the hammer down on a live round.

Added to that is the danger in lowering the hammer on one of these weapons

And really...the beauty of these weapons is that they are ready to go....right now...just snick off the safety.....

If you are going to screw that up and require thumb cocking, why not just plan on racking the slide?
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Old January 9, 2005, 02:41 PM   #10
Dave Sample
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The firing pin on a Star BM protrudes into the breechface and you should never attempt to lower the hammer with a round in the chamber. I carry mine cocked and locked which is the safest method for carrying any 1911 style pistol.There is no need to change the firing pin unless you dry fire it and break it. These are not set up like a Colt Style 1911.
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Old January 9, 2005, 04:26 PM   #11
38splfan
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Little experience.

Having litle experience with single action pistols, could someone please expound on cocked and locked for me? I know it sounds silly but being in the military we are generally restricted to carrying with chamber empty and racking before engaging. I have lots of experience with revolvers and DAO's, but need some education on the single action.

Is it round chambered, hammer back, safety on? Really not too sure.
Please help guys, and don't laugh too hard
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Old January 10, 2005, 01:08 AM   #12
XavierBreath
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You are correct, round in chamber, hammer fully cocked, thumb safety engaged. Basically, chamber a round, and engage the thumb safety (move it up). The hammer will already be back.

The danger in Condition Two (Hammer down with a round in the chamber) is that you must lower the hammer slowly with a round chambered. If you slip, you have a ND. Then, to use the weapon, you must pull the hammer back to cock it. If you slip, you have a ND. Then, on the Star BM (and other Stars) the firing pin protrudes past the breechface as stated. With this happening, the spring usually holds it half way in between the primer and the hammer. The hammer is usually a small distance away from the rear of the slide. A quick smack on that hammer could dent the primer, igniting the cartridge. Other SA guns, such as the 1911 have an inertia firing pin that does not contact the primer with the hammer down. Condition Two is still bad practice on these guns because of the other reasons stated.

FWIW, Condition One is Cocked and Locked.

Condition Three is hammer down on an empty chamber.

No laughing here, nobody is born knowing this stuff!
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Old January 10, 2005, 06:06 PM   #13
Handy
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Quote:
The grip safety (where applicable) and thumb safety on single action weapons are designed to keep the hammer from falling...not the firing pin from moving
Actually, the grip safety only prevents the trigger from moving - it does nothing about the hammer and sear.

The 1911 manual safety blocks the sear, not the hammer. The Star safety blocks the hammer.


Condition 2 carry with a 1911 might be pointless, but after the hammer is lowered is safer than cocked and locked in a series 70, since there is no potential energy in the hammer to fire anything. The only reason for an inertial firing pin is Condition 2, so Browning must have been keeping his design flexible.

But if condition 2 is pointless, condition 3 is absolutetly worthless. At least condition 2 allows you to use the gun with one hand.
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Old January 10, 2005, 08:47 PM   #14
Stephen A. Camp
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Hello. If interested here are some observations on the Star Model BM:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/C...Model%20BM.htm

Best.
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Old January 10, 2005, 10:40 PM   #15
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I carry BHP's and 1911's hammer down on a loaded chamber. They have inertial firing pins. While extremely rare, if the sear breaks on a Series 70 or any 1911 without a firing pin safety or an older BHP, the gun may discharge depending on the break even with the safety engaged. There is very little danger of a discharge with either of these guns unless you drop it from quite a ways muzzle first or hammer first onto a hard surface.
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Old January 11, 2005, 12:11 AM   #16
Handy
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Actually, only muzzle first can set them off, if from high enough.

The hammer can't drive the firing pin from a rest, so no amount of impact will cause them to fire from a hammer down strike.
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Old January 11, 2005, 02:06 PM   #17
Dave Sample
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I solve the problem in Colt Style 1911's with a $1.50 heavy duty firing pin spring from Wolff. I don't have any friends who would try to drop a 1911 loaded on it's nose from a 20 foot ladder and hope it lands on the nose of the slide and maybe goes BOOM! The 80 series firing pin safety system was done for lawyers and product liablity. If some amatuer installs an after market trigger in one and doesn't know enough to check that little lever that should raise up .100 of an inch, the gun may not fire and may cause a serious problem in a self defense situation. I passed on working on these guns because the only way I would let them leave here is with that '80 series crap in a plastic bag and a hammer shim in the gun. DISCLAIMER! Do not try this at home or ask your pistolsmith to disable any safety feature on a 1911 semi-automatic pistol. I view this as a wonderful solution for a non existant problem. Condition One or Three are OK if you are packing a 1911. The miltary has a lot of problems with troops that fail to learn gun safety. I understand the need for empty chambers in that deal. I prefer cocked and locked.
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Old January 11, 2005, 09:11 PM   #18
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Quote:
The hammer can't drive the firing pin from a rest, so no amount of impact will cause them to fire from a hammer down strike.
The hammer rests on the end of the firing pin on a bhp. When you push the hammer in there's a little play. Not much, but I wouldn't want to smack anything really hard on the hammer.
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Old June 18, 2013, 04:58 PM   #19
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The lack of correct information on these forums is breathtaking. So much of what has been posted in this thread is just flat out wrong. OK. To clear things up: 1) SOME Stars had overextending firing pins and some had inertial firing pins. In order to tell what you have, push the firing pin flat against the back of the slide with a credit card. If your firing pin doesn't protrude, you have an inertial pin. That being said, there is nothing at all unsafe about carrying a gun with an inertial firing pin "condition two" - that is round in the chamber, hammer down. If you drop the gun and it lands on the hammer it contacts the frame. The firing pin is sitting flat and can't get that "running start" it needs to overcome the firing pin spring. That's what an inertial firing pin does. As a matter of fact, the Star owners manual states (and I'm reading directly from the one in front of me): "if you must carry the pistol with a cartridge in the chamber, ALWAYS LOWER THE HAMMER TO THE UNCOCKED POSITION AND APPLY THE SAFETY". Jeez. People please. If you don't know what you're talking about, please don't post.
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Old June 18, 2013, 07:40 PM   #20
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Old June 18, 2013, 10:08 PM   #21
Deaf Smith
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Star BM and most other Star SA pistols may or may not have firing pins longer than the length of travel. If carried hammer down and something strikes the hammer it may fire.

You can check this by putting a primed brass in the chamber, point the gun in a safe direction, and using a plastic mallet strike the hammer with the hammer fully down. If the primer fires, then never ever carry it loaded and hammer down. If the primer has a dimple but didn't fire, still don't pack it with the hammer down.

The Star BM does not have a firing pin lock either so DO NOT CARRY IT ON HALF COCK. It is not made for that either.

As others posted, Cocked and Locked is the way to go. That or chamber empty.

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Old June 19, 2013, 12:31 AM   #22
Bill DeShivs
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Well, since the thread is reopened-
I DO know a little bit about Star pistols, so...
The Star is extremely safe to carry in condition 1. Safer than most other guns. There is a bar of steel that prevents the hammer falling unless the safety is disengaged.
Some Stars have inertial firing pins, some don't. The easiest way to check is to lock the slide back and press the hammer-side of the firing pin flush with the slide. Now look at the breech face. If the firing pin is protruding the gun does not have an inertial firing pin. If the firing pin is inertial, the gun is perfectly safe to carry hammer down (not half-cocked.)
I make inertial firing pins for Stars.
Stars don't have grip safeties, and are not 1911s, BTW.
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Old June 19, 2013, 07:06 AM   #23
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Simply breathtaking!
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