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Old June 15, 2013, 10:01 PM   #26
GGG210
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WOW guys you are giving me some great information here and i am learning a crap load lol.... Although i am not interested in a second grip something like a scope would be something i would be interested in so i suppose that i need to make sure that i only have 2 specifications or what not

as long as a collapsible stock is pinned it doesnt count as an item anymore does it?? or is it still counted
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Old June 15, 2013, 11:46 PM   #27
vladtepes
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This is from a thread I put together on another site.. but might be of value to you.. there is a lot more but it goes in to other aspects of firearms in NJ..

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.p...j-gun-law-faq/

Quote:
vladtepes, on 30 Nov 2011 - 02:37 AM, said:

THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE
If you would like legal advice hire a lawyer. This is a simple collection of information in regards to NJ law.
I have made every effort to present the information in a neutral manner.
This is a collection of information I have sourced on the web and information that has been shared here on the site between many of our very knowledgeable members.
OWNERSHIP/REGISTRATION

There is currently no mandatory firearm registration in effect in NJ. If you move to NJ with firearms you must be sure they are NJ legal but there is no need to register them in any way with the state.
Guns purchased while a NJ resident must be purchased within the guidelines of the state. All guns owned by NJ residents must be NJ legal.
WHAT FIREARMS ARE LEGAL TO OWN

In NJ you may not own an "assault firearm", an Assault firearm is defined in NJ by either of the following criteria. 1) An "assault firearm" can be any one of the guns listed by NJ. If the firearm is listed by name, it is illegal and you can NOT own it in NJ. 2) An "assault firearm" can also be any firearm that is "substantially identical" to the firearms listed by name. "Substantially identical" is defined by a group of characteristics listed below, if a firearm is "substantially identical" you may not own it.
(notice that the following information does NOT apply to revolver pistols, or pump shotguns)
1) The following is the list of banned firearms which are illegal to own in NJ.



2) If the gun is not listed by name, you have to also be sure the gun is not "substantially identical".
"Substantially identical" is defined in the following way.


A semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:


This means that if it is a semi-automatic pistol and has a detachable magazine it can have ONE of the following features and still be legal, but if it has two or more, then it would not be legal.

(1) An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor,
forward handgrip, or silencer;
(3) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and
that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being
burned;
(4) Manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded
(5) A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm

Example
1) A glock (which is a semi automatic pistol that has a detachable magazine ) with a threaded barrel. LEGAL
2) A glock (which is a semi automatic pistol that has a detachable magazine ) with a threaded barrel AND a barrel shroud. ILLEGAL

*******************************************************************

A semi-automatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:

This means that if it is a semi-automatic rifle and has a detachable magazine it can have ONE of the following features and still be legal, but if it has two or more, then it would not be legal.


(1) A folding or telescoping stock;
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(3) A bayonet mount;
(4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor;
(5) A grenade launcher

Example
1) An AR15 (which is a semi automatic rifle that has a detachable magazine ) with a pistol grip. LEGAL
2) An AR15 (which is a semi automatic rifle that has a detachable magazine ) with a pistol grip AND a flash hider. ILLEGAL

*******************************************************************
A semi-automatic shotgun that has at least two of the following:

This means that if it is a semi-automatic shotgun and has a detachable magazine it can have ONE of the following features and still be legal, but if it has two or more, then it would not be legal.


(1) A folding or telescoping stock;
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(3) A fixed magazine capacity in excess of six rounds;
**note(having (1 - Folding stock) (2) or (3) on a semi auto shotgun makes the gun automatically illegal even if NO other evil features are present..)**
(4) An ability to accept a detachable magazine;


OR


A semi-automatic shotgun with either a magazine capacity exceeding six rounds, a folding stock
or a pistol grip;

It is important to note that the law states that the following is to be considered an assault weapon.

(3) A semi-automatic shotgun with either a magazine capacity exceeding six
rounds, a pistol grip, or a folding stock.



Example
1) A Saiga 12 (which is a semi automatic shotgun ). LEGAL
2) A Saiga 12 (which is a semi automatic shotgun ) with a pistol grip. ILLEGAL

Since "pistol grip" is a term NJ uses to describe a feature, it is important to know what NJ deems a pistol grip.
Take notice that it does not say fired comfortably with one hand.. it simply says fired..

"Pistol grip" means a well defined handle, similar to that found on a handgun, that protrudes
conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, and which permits the firearm to be held and fired
with one hand.


OTHER FIREARM LEGALITIES/QUALIFICATIONS
It is also important to observe the minimum length a firearm can be.

Rifle
Overall Length 26in or more
Barrel Length 16in or more
Shotgun
Overall Length 26in or more
Barrel Length 18in or more


The accepted way to measure a barrel is to close the action of the weapon and insert a dowel into the barrel until it cannot go any further.
Mark the dowel remove and measure.
It is important to use a dowel that fits snugly to obtain an accurate measurement.

Magazine Capacity
A semi automatic firearm may not have a capacity greater than 15 rounds.
A semi automatic shotgun may not have a capacity greater than 6 rounds.
You may not ever posses a magazine for a semi automatic firearm that exceeds these limits, not even while modifying them to a legal limit.
The magazine must be modified before it reaches your hands. You may also not have a magazine that exceeds NJ legal capacity in the form of a "kit" or disassembled in pieces.
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Old June 15, 2013, 11:48 PM   #28
vladtepes
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In NJ the flash hider.. threaded barrel... pistol grip are not legal in itself..

it is the combination of those feature IN a semi auto rifle that can also accept a detachable mag...

you get "semi auto with detachable mag" and "one additional evil feature" which is normally the pistol grip on guns like the AR15..
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Old June 15, 2013, 11:50 PM   #29
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Quote:
Nice pictures of the AR-15 lookalikes. Not to be the one to pee in your cornflakes, but a foregrip is NOT legal on the gun in NJ. It counts as a third item and therefore what you have a picture of there is a NJ Assault weapon. We run into this at our range now and then, and I am repeating what the NJSP firearms unit has relayed to us at the gunshop I work at. Just don't want anyone to have any problems. It counts as a second pistol grip per NJSP, ergo the third item. Remember you can only have 2 in NJ.
I hate this retarded state. House is for sale, will be emigrating to the United States shortly.
so you work at a gun shop and have been told this by the NJSP...

can you please let me know who specifically told you this and what department they are in... because I have spoken to the firearms division on multiple occasions, and I could not imagine them offering up this incorrect information...
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Old June 16, 2013, 12:31 AM   #30
Ajtozzi
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New NJ Gun Owner Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by war_elephant View Post
Nice pictures of the AR-15 lookalikes. Not to be the one to pee in your cornflakes, but a foregrip is NOT legal on the gun in NJ. It counts as a third item and therefore what you have a picture of there is a NJ Assault weapon. We run into this at our range now and then, and I am repeating what the NJSP firearms unit has relayed to us at the gunshop I work at. Just don't want anyone to have any problems. It counts as a second pistol grip per NJSP, ergo the third item. Remember you can only have 2 in NJ.
I hate this retarded state. House is for sale, will be emigrating to the United States shortly.
Unfortunately this is 100% incorrect. What shop do you work at if I may ask?
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Old June 16, 2013, 06:49 PM   #31
GGG210
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so when you say this Example
1) An AR15 (which is a semi automatic rifle that has a detachable magazine ) with a pistol grip. LEGAL
2) An AR15 (which is a semi automatic rifle that has a detachable magazine ) with a pistol grip AND a flash hider. ILLEGAL


if i were to do say a collapsible stock, but it was pinned, obviously the pistol grip AND a scope (obviously a detachable mag as well) would that render my rifle non compliant or am i just reading this all wrong
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Old June 16, 2013, 06:55 PM   #32
vladtepes
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Quote:
if i were to do say a collapsible stock, but it was pinned, obviously the pistol grip AND a scope (obviously a detachable mag as well) would that render my rifle non compliant or am i just reading this all wrong
a scope?
a scope has no bearing on anything...

because an AR15 style rifle is a semi auto with detachable mag you can have ONE "evil feature" and still have a legal rifle..

but because an AR15 is obviously going to have a pistol grip... your "evil feature" is used up on that...

so you may NOT have any of the following..

(1) A folding or telescoping stock;
(3) A bayonet mount;
(4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor;
(5) A grenade launcher
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Old June 16, 2013, 07:01 PM   #33
GGG210
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good god they make this sound so much more difficult then it is.....okay so i can only have one evil feature and that is the detachable mag and that is why the collapsible stock needs to be pinned, right?? because if its pinned it aint collapsible anymore lol okay now i get it.

so then the only other thing i would need to worry about is a threaded barrel and as long as i dont have that im all good lol.

seriously cannot thank you guys enough for the help it has really made this much easier for me in understanding what i can and cannot do....
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Old June 16, 2013, 07:11 PM   #34
vladtepes
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Quote:
good god they make this sound so much more difficult then it is.....okay so i can only have one evil feature and that is the detachable mag and that is why the collapsible stock needs to be pinned, right?? because if its pinned it aint collapsible anymore lol okay now i get it.

so then the only other thing i would need to worry about is a threaded barrel and as long as i dont have that im all good lol.

seriously cannot thank you guys enough for the help it has really made this much easier for me in understanding what i can and cannot do....

OK stop for a second..

these are the "evil features for a rifle"

(1) A folding or telescoping stock;
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(3) A bayonet mount;
(4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor;
(5) A grenade launcher

notice detachable magazine is NOT there... detachable mag is NOT an "evil feature" it is instead a qualifier.. meaning this..

IF the gun is semi auto
AND
IF the gun takes a detachable mag
THEN
It can ONLY have ONE of the following features and stay legal..

(1) A folding or telescoping stock;
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(3) A bayonet mount;
(4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor;
(5) A grenade launcher

so the mag itself is not a countable feature.. it is something that tells you IF you even need to address "evil features"... keep in mind again since we are talking AR15 your ONLY feature you will be allowed will be a pistol grip..

to get around the threaded barrel you can permanently attach a muzzle brake to the barrel... this can NOT be a flash hider..
the reason you can do this is because if a muzzle device is permanently attached to a barrel per ATF guidelines it is to be considered part of the barrel...

permanently attaching the brake makes it so the barrel is no longer threaded.. this IMO needs to be done per ATF guidelines..
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Old June 16, 2013, 07:14 PM   #35
vladtepes
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for supporting information regarding permanently attached muzzle devices please review the following supporting document 26 U.S.C. 5845(d) you will notice the following explanation...

Quote:
e. Permanent methods of
attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over
http://www.atf.gov/files/publication...-chapter-2.pdf
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Old June 16, 2013, 07:18 PM   #36
GGG210
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i would never try and do something like that myself. I would go to a shop (RTSP) but how much does it cost to get that done
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Old June 16, 2013, 07:25 PM   #37
vladtepes
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Quote:
i would never try and do something like that myself. I would go to a shop (RTSP) but how much does it cost to get that done
I could never quote you a price because it can vary greatly from shop to shop... what I can tell you is it should be relatively cheap since it is a pretty common procedure... if a smith is hesitant... or overly high in cost.. I would look somewhere else..
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Old June 16, 2013, 07:28 PM   #38
vladtepes
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a good friend on another site says RTSP is good to go and is a reputable shop... they should be able to do this for you no problem..
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Old June 16, 2013, 11:59 PM   #39
war_elephant
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http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm
This is the NJ Atty General's guidelines which are regulations that guide the NJSP in the enforcement of firearms laws.

"A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:


A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:




1.a folding or telescoping stock;
2.a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
3.a bayonet mount;
4.a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
5.a grenade launcher;

This is what was shown, and given to us by a state trooper from the Firearms Unit during an inspection 2 years ago. Now, do what you want with it, but don't be surprised if you get charged. I am not in agreement with any of this but at the same time, don't want to be a test case.
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Last edited by war_elephant; June 17, 2013 at 12:08 AM.
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Old June 17, 2013, 01:30 AM   #40
diamondd817
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War Elephant,

Again.


2.a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;


A vertical foregrip does not protrude conspicuously beneath the action, nor is a vertical foregrip a pistol grip.


You are doing your customers a huge disservice by giving out this misinformation.


,

Last edited by diamondd817; June 17, 2013 at 07:42 AM.
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Old June 17, 2013, 05:40 AM   #41
vladtepes
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Quote:
but don't be surprised if you get charged. I am not in agreement with any of this but at the same time, don't want to be a test case.
I strongly suggest you contact the NJSP and ask them to clear up this confusion for you....
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Old June 17, 2013, 08:56 AM   #42
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Sorry War_Elephant you are so wrong it's kind of laughable that you "work" in a gun shop.

As to the rest, one thing I've learned living in NJ is that the cops are the single most ignorant bunch of people to ask about guns in this state. VERY few actually know the law.
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Old June 17, 2013, 09:08 AM   #43
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thats why im here to get clarification on the rules lol.... i figure nobody would know better then those who own the guns themselves within the state =) all be it perhaps not the best forum for such a discussion but oh well

appreciate it guys
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Old June 17, 2013, 10:09 AM   #44
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the first thing anyone should do that wants to own guns while living in NJ is read the law... read it as it is literally written... then ask questions about what you dont understand...
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Old June 17, 2013, 07:06 PM   #45
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I don't want to hijack the thread but as the OP also said he wanted to get a 9MM handgun, isn't NJ gthe state that disallows civilian possessing hollow point bullets? Must tb they only allow cops proper SD bullets. (insertsevere sarcasm smiley.) Not picking on LEO's BTW. Got too many of them as friends.
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Old June 17, 2013, 07:20 PM   #46
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Paul,

Hollowpoints are legal to posses and use at the range and for SD in NJ.
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Old June 17, 2013, 07:30 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamondd817
Hollowpoints are legal to posses and use at the range and for SD in NJ.
Not quite; to clarify this, they're legal for home defense, but not for carry outside the home. You may use them for target practice and for hunting (when otherwise legal), and you may transport them between your home and wherever you're doing those things, but it's illegal to possess them elsewhere.
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Old June 17, 2013, 08:23 PM   #48
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Quote:
Not quite; to clarify this, they're legal for home defense, but not for carry outside the home.
Yes, you are correct. But, you have to realize a NJ carry permit is unatainable. So, to mention that they are illegal for carry outside the home is a moot point.

Last edited by diamondd817; June 18, 2013 at 04:48 AM.
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Old June 17, 2013, 09:06 PM   #49
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Quote:
But, you have to realize a NJ carry permit is unatainable. So, to mention that they are illegal for carry outside the home is a mute [sic] point.
I'm aware of of that, but others reading this may not be. In standard usage, SD refers to self-defense anywhere, in the home or out, while HD is used to refer specifically to defense inside one's home. It's not a trivial distinction -- see the sticky on "Duty to Retreat..." etc. at the top of the L&CR index page. And it's by no means a moot point that is illegal to possess them elsewhere than the specified locations or travel routes, so that even having them in your car while you detour to go to the supermarket would be grounds for arrest.
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Old June 17, 2013, 10:57 PM   #50
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I really don't appreciate the personal attacks I have gotten here. I relayed what the NEW JERSEY STATE POLICE are telling gunshops and I am getting nasty messages and arguments. I AM NOT THE PERSON saying this, I am relaying what the NJSP has told us. I am done, will not discuss this further. Do what you want. I really don't care at this point.
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