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Old June 10, 2013, 06:00 AM   #1
HALL,AUSTIN
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Back up training?

Most train with the gun they carry, but how many train in hand to hand or disarming the threat? Lets say that a mugger wrestles your gun away from you. Are you trained and proficient enough to get your weapon back? A lot of people I talk to say "well I have a gun." Which is good, but if someone takes your weapon then now they have your gun AND they have the drop on you. Maybe reaching for your BUG isn't exactly ideal. Just a quick thought.
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Old June 10, 2013, 08:14 AM   #2
kraigwy
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I know I've posted about the "Personal Firearm Defense" series before, sounds like maybe I'm making money on the series but honestly I'm not. I don't sell the DVD Series, I have no connection with the PFD or the Personal Defense Network, Never met Rod Pincus and know nothing about him except what I've seen on the PDN or reading some of his post on this forum. I don't sell his products (nor do I sell anything else, I'm in the spending phase of my life, not the selling).

So there's my disclaimer.

Now to the OP's comments. I agree. But most of us aren't MA experts, a lot of us are too old to get into a knock down drag out with anyone, and some are petite ladies. We're not going to be able to fight it out with some drugged out bandit. So we have to look elsewhere.

Pod Pincus and the Personal Defense Network has put out a series of DVD's on self defense, one such, "Extreme Close Quarters Shooting". This is a excellent DVD on personal defense at "bad breath/contact with the bandit distance".

I've been a firearms instructor (military, LE, and civilian) for about 40 years, still certified as a LE Instructor in rifle, pistol and Sniper. Added to that I teach a ladies Firearms Safety and Self Defense Class.

I try and based my classes on what might happen in the real world, I tell my students that the course is NOT a shooting course but a Self Defense Course, there is a difference.

Back to topic. In my 20 years in LE I like all officers have spent my time rolling around on a bar room floor trying to protect my service revolver while trying to subdue a bandit. I've wrestled wife beaters at DV calls while the victim was on my back trying to protect her husband who's been beating her.

Extreme Close Quarter ruckuses do happen. You may be fighting for your purse, wallet, car keys, or firearm, read the news, it happens.

That is why Mr Pincus has put out his DVD "Extreme Close Quarters Shooting". I've watched the DVD several times, I know, based on my experience (and what I've read in the news, discussed with LE officers, etc) that what Pincus presents will work.

Get the DVD, study it, get a plastic practice (blue gun) and practice it. For live fire shooting I highly recommend you go one on one with a qualified instructor.

If you do nothing else, get the DVD and study it. It covers this topic quite well.

Again the Disclaimer, I am not involved with the PDN, I'm just an end user trying to voice a review.
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Old June 10, 2013, 09:10 AM   #3
deepcreek
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I feel like this is neglected in most gun training. But it also can get extensive, how deep does someone want to go into the realm of ground fighting, weapons retention and weapons take aways? Personally I think it is very important to at least train in some basics.

I have had lots of fun fighting over rubber guns and dull knives in the dojo.
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Old June 10, 2013, 10:33 AM   #4
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My approach to self defense it that it is a system. A gun is just part of that system. It does not take any mythical martial arts skill train weapon retention or disarms.
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Old June 10, 2013, 01:10 PM   #5
kraigwy
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Here is an article to go along with this topic.

Apparently two NYC Officers were escorting a suspect to the hospital when he some how got a hold of the officer's gun, shooting and wounding the officer.

http://www.officer.com/news/10957846...*=CPS130604006
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Old June 10, 2013, 05:11 PM   #6
oldandslow
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austin, 6/11/13

As Kraigwy pointed out it is very important to be competent in using or protecting your weapon at contact distances. One great training class called Extreme Close Quarters Concepts (run by a swat instructor from Mississippi) involves two and a half days of close-quarters/contact training. It's a physically demanding class where you'll come out of the course with some aches and pains but is well taught and practical. I've taken it twice and have found the course valuable. The class size is small and usually a mixture of civilians and LE. Take a look at the website- www.shivworks.com for more info. Good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow
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Old June 10, 2013, 05:22 PM   #7
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This is why I keep a Benchmade AFO II in my pocket. If I was kitted up, it's a Gerber LMFII ASEK.

I have no illusions about winning a fistfight, which is why my entire philosophy is centered on creating space, not closing.
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Old June 10, 2013, 06:01 PM   #8
ClydeFrog
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Weapon security & retention....

Weapon security & retention have come up often on gun/tactics forums in recent years.
There is some merit to using level II or III holsters if you open carry or work in a high threat area but for armed citizens/general use, it's not critical IMO.

I've packed sidearms & had a concealed carry license in 2 states for nearly 24 years. I've never had a snatch or weapon rentention issue.
I'm not saying security or rentention holsters aren't needed but the issue seems to be pushed more & more by police chiefs/county sheriffs with a agenda .

Gun writer & sworn LE officer Massad Ayoob put out a great article on the same topic(armed citizens using open carry/rentention holsters).

ClydeFrog
PS; Id add that a security rig can help prevent mishaps or problems like a gun falling onto a gas station parking lot as you exit a patrol car, .
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Old June 11, 2013, 02:20 AM   #9
BlackFeather
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I second the Shivworks mention.

I don't currently have a gun to carry, no money to replace mine. So I do rely on hand to hand, or baton, or knife techniques if it comes down to it. I don't carry my baton much anymore, even though it provides more less lethal options than a knife. I look at it this way, if I'm likely to be in an encounter with a person who is a lethal threat, they are likely carrying an impact weapon or knife, and I won't have time to reach for much, so my hands are always the first defense. I would never go knife to knife, no matter how much I have trained it. Knife to impact weapon is a strong possibility, especially because against a weapon with more reach, it's safer inside the arc. If they have a gun at close range, they can have what they want, if it's my life, I'm not sure drawing something is going to help, so my hands will hopefully do what they have trained to do. If it's at a distance, I do what anyone in the right mind would do when carrying anything, GET TO COVER.

I find that in my experience in many forms of martial arts and self defense, there is always something to work on, and their are always more tools to learn to use. Sticking to no more than two tools and having the ability to provide support with every natural tool is the simplest route to being effective and not getting confused. I just switched to a different carry knife, and I have found more options, but lost some, so everything has a give and take.
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Old June 16, 2013, 08:34 AM   #10
HALL,AUSTIN
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That is kind of what I am getting at. The best state of the art firearm, once you lose retention, is just up for grabs. Not very ideal.
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Old June 16, 2013, 08:48 AM   #11
allaroundhunter
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Re: Back up training?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HALL,AUSTIN View Post
Most train with the gun they carry, but how many train in hand to hand or disarming the threat? Lets say that a mugger wrestles your gun away from you. Are you trained and proficient enough to get your weapon back? A lot of people I talk to say "well I have a gun." Which is good, but if someone takes your weapon then now they have your gun AND they have the drop on you. Maybe reaching for your BUG isn't exactly ideal. Just a quick thought.
Yes, I do have some training in defending myself with my hands (and a knife). There are situations where going for your gun isn't an option. I also have weapon retention training so hopefully I never actually have to wrestle my gun away from an assailant.
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Old June 19, 2013, 02:26 AM   #12
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I'm too old to fight with hoodlums over a gun. Therefore my plan is to avoid getting into such a situation and if I do, to shoot them before they can physically reach me. There, problem solved.
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Old June 19, 2013, 10:19 AM   #13
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Regarding knives -

Consider this...

Criminals in jail spend hours daily practicing hand to hand and knife fighting. They are taught how and where to strike to kill their opponents. They aren't concerned with "justifiable" and legalities. They are taught, by the best, how to kill others and how to take knives away from others and then kill them. They are not learning self defense. They are learning brutal offense with the desired result being death of the opponent.

Cops? I had something like 4 hrs of knife combat training in the academy with rubber knives.

Martial arts? Maybe you do something similar to cops. Or maybe you become very interested so you practice an hour a day, 2-3 times a week. Still nowhere near what the thugs do.

The cops and the Martial arts guys still have that "justifiable" and "legalities" component. The bad guys still don't. Cops and martial arts guys are in self defense mode. Thugs aren't.

Bottom line, NOBODY is better than the bad guys at knife fighting. Once a knife enters the picture, no matter who is holding that knife, the advantage becomes overwhelmingly on the side of the thug.


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Old June 19, 2013, 10:35 AM   #14
kraigwy
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We heard you don't take a knife to a gun fight.

We hard the 21 ft rule, or if a knife guy is within 21 feet, he can get you before you can draw and shoot.

I believe in the first statement.

I don't totally believe in the second. If you practice, you can beat the knife guy even if he is within 21 feet.

Like anything else PRACTICE.

Face your target. Have your range partner stand be hind you at 21 feet.

When the timer goes off draw and shoot, at the same time your partner runs up behinds you and taps your shoulder.

Practice until you can get your shot(s) off be fore he taps you.

All it takes is practice. A lot of speed determines how you carry. I pocket carry and always have my hand in my pockets (Air Force Gloves).

In a sticky situation you can be ready and no one is the wiser. Looks odd if you belt carry and walk around with your had on your gun.

Another fun drill, both you and your range partner face your respective targets. Have him point at his target and tell him to shoot as soon he sees you start to draw.

Talk to him, try to distract him, you'd be surprised how often you can draw and fire before he fires. That's with him knowing that you are going to draw. This drill shows just because someone has the drop on you, it doesn't mean they have the advantage. He has to re-act, you act, You can act faster then you can re-act.
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Last edited by kraigwy; June 19, 2013 at 10:43 AM.
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Old June 19, 2013, 10:47 AM   #15
SgtLumpy
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Quote:
We heard you don't take a knife to a gun fight.
And don't take a knife to a knife fight. You'll lose..


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Old June 19, 2013, 10:53 AM   #16
allaroundhunter
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Re: Back up training?

Kraigwy, the problem with the timer drill is that both you and the attacker are caught semi-off guard by the beep. In the real world, it is the bad guy that will start the attack. If you want to test the 21 ft rule then have an "attacker" start 21 ft from you (directly in front) and run at you. You aren't allowed to make a move until he moves. Of course, this is a situation where airsoft is what you want to be using.
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