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Old June 17, 2013, 08:34 PM   #76
4V50 Gary
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Garycw - I know of no agency whose officers don hearing protection in anticipation of a shoot out. Better yet, I never met an officer who carried earplugs in case there would be one. You have to hear your radio (but thankfully most agencies issue an ear bud for the radio).
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Old June 17, 2013, 10:44 PM   #77
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Are none of the anti ear protection advocates worried about there ears? Weather or not you hear the shot is not relevant. Your ear still heard the shot, your brain did not register it. Which means you still got damaged hearing..

Why risk the beautiful sounds of life? Train, have a plan, and have the tools not just your gun at your disposal quickly. The gun is just one piece of the tool box. The ammo, the flash light, the emuffs should all be there. Hearing is to precious to waste. There is no getting it back. There is no way to repair damaged hearing.

Sure you lived, but now your have no life.. Going around not being able to hear the world around you, your family your friends, nature, is not a good way to live...

Not my fault if you don't have the training or a plan in place to use hearing protection.. Have fun enjoying tinnitus and not being able to hear the wonderful sounds out life..
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Old June 18, 2013, 06:37 AM   #78
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Pros & Cons Of HD Shooting Using Ear Protection

He said/ She said... Potato/ Patawto..with all the bashing/brow beating ,and name calling I think this one has about run its course! Agree to disagree!
No one wants to loose there hearing and no one wants to take unnecessary time to respond if you don't have it.
Every situation is different!!

Last edited by Garycw; June 18, 2013 at 06:54 AM.
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Old June 18, 2013, 06:37 AM   #79
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Are none of the anti ear protection advocates worried about there ears? Weather or not you hear the shot is not relevant. Your ear still heard the shot, your brain did not register it. Which means you still got damaged hearing..
Hearing loss is normally caused by prolonged exposure to loud noises. I always use hearing protection at the range but I have as I am sure many other have forgot to put them on or haven't got them on quick enough before the person beside them starts shooting. So the chances of having to shoot in your home very low the chances of a few shoots causing permanent hearing loss lower again. So to me its not worth considering.

Last edited by manta49; June 18, 2013 at 07:08 AM.
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Old June 18, 2013, 07:23 AM   #80
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Posted by Manta 49: Hearing loss is normally caused by prolonged exposure to loud noises.
Permanent noise induced hearing loss is made worse by cumulative exposure. A single incident can, however, cause permanent impairment.

Temporary hearing loss, which could make the difference between life and death, is also something to consider.

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So the chances of having to shoot in your home very low the chances of a few shoots causing permanent hearing loss lower again. So to me its not worth considering.
The probabliity of the need to shoot arising is irrelevant to the analysis.
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Old June 18, 2013, 08:08 AM   #81
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Permanent noise induced hearing loss is made worse by cumulative exposure. A single incident can, however, cause permanent impairment.
This is true and a shot fired in an enclosed space such as your home results in multiple exposures with a single shot because of surface reflection (echo) of the sound waves) that generally happen so fast that you don't realize it, but it happens. So in a typical room, you could get 6 major reflections from the ceiling, floor (5 if carpeted), and 4 walls. Each of these reflections, in a typical sized home, will be loud enough on their own to cause hearing damage. Then you have the secondary reflections of the reflections which also can be loud enough to cause hearing damage. So that is another 5 or 6 damaging pulses.
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Old June 18, 2013, 09:01 AM   #82
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You're right, DNS, and it's actually even worse than that.

It's no different from a ricochet. A bullet that bounces off a hard surface can still have enough kinetic energy to injure you, and reflected sound can have enough acoustic energy to damage your ears.

If you're firing a handgun with a muzzle blast that measures 165 dB in a small room with reflective walls, ceiling, and floor, that's going to produce six reflected impulses within a few milliseconds of the direct sound; if the reflected impulses each measure around 150 dB, which is entirely possible, your ears have now been exposed to seven potentially damaging acoustic events instead of just one, and to the extent that the impulses overlap when they reach your ears, they'll act like a single, more intense acoustic event, and the SPL will be the sum of their acoustic energy, and will have even more potential for causing hearing damage.

The damaging effect of noise is cumulative: exposure to several intense acoustic events is more harmful than exposure to just one, and a longer event will do more damage than a short one of the same intensity. It makes no difference to your ears if these events are direct, from the original sound source, or reflected.
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Last edited by Vanya; June 18, 2013 at 01:47 PM.
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Old June 18, 2013, 10:09 PM   #83
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Pros & Cons Of HD Shooting Using Ear Protection

Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49 View Post
So the chances of having to shoot in your home very low the chances of a few shoots causing permanent hearing loss lower again. So to me its not worth considering.
The chances of using a gun in a self defense situation are actually very low, so why even bother with a gun?
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Old June 19, 2013, 12:10 AM   #84
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Food for thought. Police Officers wear ear protection on the range. How many of them have you seen working the streets with muffs.
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Old June 19, 2013, 12:48 AM   #85
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Food for thought. Police Officers wear ear protection on the range. How many of them have you seen working the streets with muffs.
I don't sit around my living room wearing them, either, or sleep in them.

Police officers are at the top of the list of occupations with the highest risk of job-related hearing loss. Guess why.
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Old June 19, 2013, 12:58 AM   #86
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Actually I think its Back injury.
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Old June 19, 2013, 01:18 AM   #87
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Armsmaster, perhaps I wasn't clear. What I was saying was that compared to other occupations, police officers have a very high risk of job-related hearing loss, not that hearing loss is their most frequent occupational injury. I believe you're correct, that's back injury.
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Old June 19, 2013, 09:49 AM   #88
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Police officers are at the top of the list of occupations with the highest risk of job-related hearing loss. Guess why.
With the amount of officer involved shootings being fairly low I would guess NIHL-noise-induced hearing loss due to time spent on busy road sides with trucks roaring by and directing traffic around jack hammers and other road construction machinery.
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Old June 19, 2013, 10:09 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by deepcreek
With the amount of officer involved shootings being fairly low I would guess NIHL-noise-induced hearing loss due to time spent on busy road sides with trucks roaring by and directing traffic around jack hammers and other road construction machinery.
We have a winner!

In fact, traffic cops and dispatchers are the ones most at risk. As deepcreek points out, the chances that a given police officer will be involved in a shooting are very low, so it wouldn't make sense for them to wear muffs all the time, any more than it would for me to wear them while sitting in my living room, just on the off-chance of a home invasion.

Having them available is another matter.

(Yes, that was a trick question... )
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Old June 19, 2013, 12:05 PM   #90
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Suppressed handguns for HD seem to be more common these days and hearing loss concerns is one of the reasons why is what I am told.

I think they will only get more popular as they are legal in so many states now. I think the cost and a tax stamp are the downside and what limits more people from using them.
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Old June 19, 2013, 12:09 PM   #91
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I prefer auditory exclusion
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Old June 19, 2013, 12:41 PM   #92
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The chances of using a gun in a self defense situation are actually very low, so why even bother with a gun?
I don't.

Quote:
Police officers are at the top of the list of occupations with the highest risk of job-related hearing loss. Guess why.
Why? I would assume they wear ear protection at the range like most people. And very few probably use their firearms in anger.

Quote:
In fact, traffic cops and dispatchers are the ones most at risk.
They should use electronic ear protection then.

Last edited by manta49; June 19, 2013 at 12:46 PM.
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Old June 19, 2013, 12:42 PM   #93
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I prefer auditory exclusion
Unlikely to prevent damage.
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Old June 19, 2013, 12:45 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by OldMarksman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiker 1
I prefer auditory exclusion
Unlikely to prevent damage.
Auditory exclusion will not prevent hearing loss. It's a psychological effect, similar to tunnel vision, and it doesn't negate the laws of physics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
Police officers are at the top of the list of occupations with the highest risk of job-related hearing loss. Guess why.
Why? I would assume they wear ear protection at the range like most people. And very few probably use their firearms in anger.
Manta, go back and read my post #89.
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Old June 19, 2013, 12:56 PM   #95
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Auditory exclusion will not prevent hearing loss. It's a psychological effect, similar to tunnel vision, and it doesn't negate the laws of physics.
...physics and biology. Those brittle little ear hairs will still break off whether you notice the intensity of the noise or not. It is the outer auditory hair hair cells that are responsible for amplification of more quiet noises.

Not only that, but auditory exclusion isn't universal or consistent, not even at the individual level. So you can't even count on it to work in dampening what you perceive.
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Old June 19, 2013, 01:11 PM   #96
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Manta, go back and read my post #89.
OK As we were talking about hearing loss connected with shooting and police were mentioned as a example, I assumed that hearing loss in the police connected to firearms use was why they were put up as a example.
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Old June 19, 2013, 02:10 PM   #97
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Pros & Cons Of HD Shooting Using Ear Protection

What was brought up regarding LEO, was not patrolman, resource officer etc. it was about swat teams , entry teams using flash bangs and other divisions the regularly encounter loud noises. Another example might be military training exercises, or even actual battles. On the history channel where it shows soldiers loading and firing cannons, its no wonder they came home shell shocked.
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Old June 19, 2013, 05:39 PM   #98
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Auditory exclusion will not prevent hearing loss. It's a psychological effect, similar to tunnel vision, and it doesn't negate the laws of physics.

Yes, I know. Just trying to lighten things up.
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Old June 20, 2013, 03:20 PM   #99
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When I'm standing next to someone at the range who is shooting a 50 BMG --- I seem to feel a pressure wave from the muzzle brake after the gun is discharged. Is this the same type of pressure wave that you get from explosions such as in fertilizer bombs? I've read it's not the noise that kills in these bombs...but the pressure wave that first affects the ears, then the brain and finally stops the heart.
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Old June 20, 2013, 06:08 PM   #100
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When I'm standing next to someone at the range who is shooting a 50 BMG --- I seem to feel a pressure wave from the muzzle brake after the gun is discharged. Is this the same type of pressure wave that you get from explosions such as in fertilizer bombs? I've read it's not the noise that kills in these bombs...but the pressure wave that first affects the ears, then the brain and finally stops the heart.
It's called concussion, and, yes, it's the same physical force, only amplified to extraordinary levels in explosive ordnance.
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