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Old June 17, 2013, 12:43 PM   #76
Quentin2
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Boomer, have you read the tale of "Filthy 14"! DIs can wallow in the filth for thousands of rounds. I've heard the round count went over 50k before EAG rebuilt the rifle.

http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t...ine-filthy-14/
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Old June 17, 2013, 05:40 PM   #77
Boomer58cal
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Oh I've heard many a story and don't get me wrong. I have 3 AR's that are DI and they're all reliable. A Colt AR15 in 223, a DPMS. 308 and a Rock river full match grade in with 26" bull barrel in. 308. As long as they are well lubed they run perfict. My SKS works clean, dirty, lubed or dry. If DI guns are 99% reliable than piston guns are probably 99.5%. Nothing is 100%. More reliable is more reliable. Even if it's only by a tiny amout.

My sks has to date has been 100% reliable. I can't say that about my AR's. They have all failed to do something at least once. I also have a 10/22 with close to 60,000 rounds through it( turned the first barrel into a smooth bore). The only time it's failed me was because of cheap ammo. Reliable is reliable.

Norhing wrong with DI guns. Infact they're probabilly better for the average person. If you're in combat that's differant. The reason M-4's are find for out military is that long supply train behind them. If your in a survival situation with no backup and no supply train piston is better. I've never even heard a of a guy dieing with a jammed AK in his hand. Have you? Probabilly not.

Boomer
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Old June 17, 2013, 08:28 PM   #78
Quentin2
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Quote:
Oh I've heard many a story and don't get me wrong. I have 3 AR's that are DI and they're all reliable. A Colt AR15 in 223, a DPMS. 308 and a Rock river full match grade in with 26" bull barrel in. 308. As long as they are well lubed they run perfict. My SKS works clean, dirty, lubed or dry. If DI guns are 99% reliable than piston guns are probably 99.5%. Nothing is 100%. More reliable is more reliable. Even if it's only by a tiny amout.

My sks has to date has been 100% reliable. I can't say that about my AR's. They have all failed to do something at least once. I also have a 10/22 with close to 60,000 rounds through it( turned the first barrel into a smooth bore). The only time it's failed me was because of cheap ammo. Reliable is reliable.

Norhing wrong with DI guns. Infact they're probabilly better for the average person. If you're in combat that's differant. The reason M-4's are find for out military is that long supply train behind them. If your in a survival situation with no backup and no supply train piston is better. I've never even heard a of a guy dieing with a jammed AK in his hand. Have you? Probabilly not.

Boomer

Well rounding off numbers from the Improved Carbine trials )piston vs. DI M4A1) then doing some simple calculator math, here's my quote from earlier today...

Quote:
...the M4A1's 1 malfunction roughly every 1700 rounds is pretty darn reliable. Something like 99.94%. Increasing that to 1 malf in 3700 rounds raises reliability up to about 99.97%. I know that's just statistics but are we talking a significant increase in reliability? Or reaching the area of diminishing returns? ...
No doubt plenty of soldiers have died with a jammed AK at their side. Plenty of jams with any piston rifle too, M14, M1 Garand and others. I joined the Army in 1966 and was issued the M14 most of my three years. Except when I was sent to Vietnam with the M16. It worked if you took care of it and if you got good ammo and mags. It still works well today.
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Old June 18, 2013, 09:33 AM   #79
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Thru out history new technologies and operating systems have been rejected by old stuburn hardheaded generals and others. The Henry rifle was rejected at first during the Civil War by the high command but after soldiers bought their own and found them to be very effective the US military finally fielded approx. 1700. Adolf Hitler refused to let production happen of the Sturmgewher until they finally put one in his hands to shoot but it was too late to make any differance in the out come of the war. Even the original DI M16 in Vietnam was a jamomatic until changes were made. Again I predict that the piston system in the AR platform will become the norm after some battle field use and tweeking that it might need.
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Old June 18, 2013, 11:31 AM   #80
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I'll strongly agree we've reached the point of diminishing returns. All new tech thst pushes the limits will have teething issues like the M16 did. I'll take that 0.01% extra reliability every time if my lifes on the line. As a rule... I'll take accurate enough and dead reliable over 1/4 moa and works most of the time.


But that's just me. Boomer
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Old June 18, 2013, 12:05 PM   #81
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This has been done to death but it boils down to:

Piston Guns:
Pros:
"Some" reliability improvements (arguable point)
Easier to clean
More suppressor friendly

Cons:
Heavier(though some high end models now weigh about as much as a DI gun)
Less Accurate(again, arguable point)
More expensive(some low end models now cost as much as a "mid range" AR)
Parts availability

DI Guns:
Pros:
Lighter
Cheaper(in general)
High level of parts availability
"More" accurate(arguable)

Cons:
More difficult to clean
"Less" reliable(again, very arguable)


I have both DI and Piston guns, this is my opinion let me start off by saying.
If I am going to buy an AR, it is going to be DI period. Parts are almost universally interchangable, parts are also very available. I like the balance of a DI AR-15 more than a Piston AR-15. A DI AR-15 I feel like I can balance it on one finger.

I like Piston guns, I really do. I also own a SIG-556 rifle which for those not in the know, is a civie version of what is often called "The Swiss AK-47".
If I am going to buy a Piston gun its going to be a "from the ground up" Piston design like the SIG-556, H&K 416 or SCAR 16/17.
I love my SIG-556 but it is front heavy like most Piston designs. Its super easy to clean but the sucker is heavy. I don't know that I would want to be lugging it around all day every day.

For what its worth with about 2000 rounds through each gun I have not had a single failure of any type period. One day I might play a game of sandbox with both and see what happens but call me crazy I don't like dropping my rifles in the sand for the heck of it.
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Old June 18, 2013, 12:12 PM   #82
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Agreed. Beating a dead horse
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Last edited by Boomer58cal; June 18, 2013 at 12:13 PM. Reason: can't type
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Old June 18, 2013, 09:56 PM   #83
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I have no doubt that somebody will come along and resurrect the poor old horse in order to beat on it once again.

Enough for now, for this, the umpteenth iteration of this subject.
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