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Old June 13, 2013, 03:36 PM   #26
Hiker 1
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There are really no safe towns. People live their whole lives in big cities and never have problems and people get murdered in small towns where people leave their doors unlocked (see Kraigwy's post)

The wolf can show up anytime - a movie theater a hiking trail, Home Depot - so I prefer to be able to bite back. That's just me.
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Old June 13, 2013, 05:15 PM   #27
RBid
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"There are no safe towns" is a true statement. There are relatively safe towns. There are not absolutely safe towns.

The town I live in is about as safe as it gets. Our crime index is 67.7, which is incredibly low. In 2011, we had 0 murders. Unfortunately, 3 people were raped, 4 were robbed, 3 were assaulted violently, and there were 17 burglaries. Roughly 18,000 people were unharmed in this town. Others were not so lucky.

Here are some easy things to do:

1. be mindful of your surroundings

2. carry everywhere, all of the time, unless you are legally forbidden

3. make choices that minimize risk, without sacrificing quality of life
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Old June 14, 2013, 01:09 PM   #28
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I carry alot but not always. There are those who are on a mission to carry but I don't see my life that way. I will carry as it fits into what I am wearing or where I am going. I don't wake up and plan my day around carrying a firearm. I would say that I only carry a firearm about 80% of the time. I don't loose any sleep over it.
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Old June 14, 2013, 01:37 PM   #29
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Each and every one of us must decide for ourselves when and where we'll carry. Like many, I carry everywhere I am legally permitted. My job, unfortunately, places some restrictions on that. (As a lawyer, I spend a lot of time in City Hall, courthouses, etc.) With that said, I would advise that you (OP) learn your state laws, and learn them well. They'll tell you when & where you can carry, as well as the contours of self-defense law in your state.

Cordially,
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Old June 14, 2013, 01:52 PM   #30
manta49
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It would be up to you decide when you feel the need to carry a firearm. I would say the chances of needing to use one is very small but possible.
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Old June 14, 2013, 04:37 PM   #31
deepcreek
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I live in northern Utah but I'm going to school in Idaho and my family lives in North Carolina and Georgia. So sometimes I feel like I'm in an exceptionally safe town but other times not so much.
I have lived in northern Utah and Idaho. I never felt the need to carry a gun in Nth Utah except maybe in Ogden(lots of poor meth trash) and parts of SLC like the west side has gangs and other sketchy creatures.

Idaho is full of poverty and meth. If you are going to Pocatello I would pack a gun as much as possible, Pocatello just has a lot of poverty and meth. I had a meth head attack me for no reason 3 blocks from the college campus there. I guess he thought I was a meth monster or what ever else was in his deranged head.
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Old June 15, 2013, 06:52 AM   #32
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OP, looks like you're getting a bunch of advice, and hopefully have added that knowledge to your bag of tricks. Here's a few more pieces:

It is perfectly legal to travel by airplane in the US with your firearms. All airlines follow pretty much the same formula. You need to arrive at the airport with your gun(s) unloaded and in hard-side containers. Your ammo needs to be in original packaging or otherwise securely contained (reload boxes). When you get to check-in (cannot check curbside), simply tell the person behind the counter, with a smile, "I need a declaration form for a firearm"... and they will hand you a card that you fill out and place in the container with your gun, or inside your luggage if your hardside gun case is inside another piece of regular luggage. You will lock you gun-case with a NON-TSA lock, and it will go in the belly of the plane with all the other baggage. Some counter people want to actually see that the gun is unloaded and secured. Some don't care. Some simlpy direct you over to the TSA line. 99% of the time, it's a no-brainer done deal. The only problems I've ever heard anybody have are because the counter-person doesn't know what to do, and simply wants to say "NO" to everything... and those problems are always solved by asking to speak to a manager. Again, it's a no-brainer.

Check out this website, and watch the video linked at the top of the page:
http://deviating.net/firearms/packing/

Next, you need to understand that all your licensing revolves around the state you are a resident of... ie, where your drivers license is from and where you are registered to vote. You will be able to apply for a "resident permit" from that state, and for a "non-resident" permit from any other state that issues them.

I take it that you're a resident of Utah is an ideal "shall issue" state, and ID/NC/GA all have formal reciprocity with Utah: http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FAQother.html

Be sure to also check about carrying at school, or buildings owned by the school but not actually at the school, or any kind of thing/event/place that has anything to do with a school.

People have mixed results the first few times they carry. Some people say "no big deal", while others feel as if everybody that walks past them somehow knows they're carrying. Running into a police officer makes them feel nervous. Some guys go out of their way to wear extra clothing when they go out to make sure nothing shows... etc... You'll find that these concerns go away rather quickly when you discover that nobody knows you're carrying, and nobody really cares. Concealed is concealed after all.

"Printing" is overrated IMHO...not that you want to wear spandex when trying to conceal, but the thought that a person is going to see the outline of your gun through your clothes and then "report you" is something that I've never heard of actually happening. It's discussed a lot on the various forums I read, but I've never actually heard of a story. Others may have an example, but unless you want to strap on a Rossi Ranch Hand, it's a non-issue.

Accidental exposure is another thing altogether, and you should take steps to avoid it. Although the actual facts of this event will probably never truly be known, you need to read the story of Erik Scott, who was shot by Las Vegas police outside a Costco over a accidental exposure issue... a good lesson for us all, not only about how we maintain our concealment, but about how we conduct ourselves during an incident, and especially how we conduct ourselves when carrying and approached by police: http://www.bing.com/search?q=erik+sc...c=IE-SearchBox

Bottom line, proper clothing for the type of carry will eliminate both printing and exposure.

Good luck with your choices.
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Old June 17, 2013, 11:19 AM   #33
ryanh51
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So much great information and advice! I've definitely learned a lot and I feel a lot more comfortable with CC hearing your experiences. I still think it'll take getting used to and I'm sure I'll start forming more of my own opinions after I get licensed and start carrying my gun around
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Old June 18, 2013, 02:49 AM   #34
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Ryan - it is good that a young man like yourself is thinking, before acting. You need to assess what threats you may face. BTW with a Utah permit you can carry in Idahoho, NC, and GA and (I think) everywhere in between.

First of all, nobody says you have to carry a gun every second. Each person has different threats, needs and reasons. Maybe all you need is the knowledge that if the SHTF you have a couple of guns to keep the zombies at bay, just in case. Unless you work in some kind of high risk field or own a convenience store in the ghetto the likelihood is you will probably need a gun to shoot a grizzly bear on your back porch long before you will need one to repel home invaders. In other words, like... never.

Are you going to need a gun in church in Utah? I doubt it, and if you are a Mormon it's against the law to carry into an LDS church anyway. Is an outlaw biker gang going to take over your town raping and pillaging, probably not. Is a crazy person likely to shoot up the theater, mall, school, post office, or work place where you happen to be at the moment - maybe.

Your .357 is an OK gun for home defense, hiking, or for a car gun. It is versatile, though if it is full size not really concealable. Your Mosin and shotgun are a solid foundation. As you grow and refine your interests I'm sure you will add to your collection. With the three guns you now have, you have tools for hunting and basic self defense.

If you feel the need to carry a concealed weapon I recommend buying a "carry" gun like a Ruger LC9, SR9C or Springfield XDS, XDM, SW M&P, or any of the other fine defensive pistols, even (god save me)... a Glock. Please budget the money for it. Whatever you do - don't ever look at or pick up a 1911 - it is like taking crack on meth - once you touch one you will need 10! Your kids will go barefoot in the winter, but your 1911's will all get custom grips. Trust me on this.

Regarding your comments about causing an issue with friends by carrying. I agree. Unless your job entails some great threat SOME people are going to think you are whacked if you carry a gun all the time. But if we knew "when" we were going to need a gun, none of us would carry until 5 minutes before the event.

My advice is: 1) Unless you are hiking or rounding up cattle, don't carry a gun you can't conceal completely among friends and family. 2) Don't discuss your gun with anyone beside your spouse or someone at the range or gun store. If someone sees it or finds out you carry, acknowledge that yes you carry and then change the subject.

Finally, being a smart young guy who seems to be investigating this very well I would suggest along with your guns, that you get some formal training. While a week long course at Gunsite may be out of your budget, most areas offer NRA safety and self defense courses for around $100 each. Many community colleges have police or security courses that are available to the public at reasonable cost. Each class will teach you something. I try to take at least a one day class of some sort every year and I shoot at least once a month.

In time you will find what works for you.
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Old June 18, 2013, 07:58 AM   #35
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...and if you are a Mormon it's against the law to carry into an LDS church anyway
More details please...I'm fascinated by this. First, I always thought that the Mormons were one of the most gun friendly bunch in the universe. Second, there's a "law" (state law? or ?) against bringing a gun into an LDS church?


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Old June 18, 2013, 09:57 AM   #36
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Quote:
What do you guys do?
All I can do is tell you what I do...I cannot tell you what you should do.


Quote:
How many of you have actually been forced to used a handgun in self defense
Most won't ever say on an internet forum if they've shot someone.

Quote:
and what situations would you recommend carrying a gun?
All the time. You can't go back home and get it if something goes south on your end. All. The. Time. I don't just say it, I do it.

Crime doesn't make an appointment or give you a friendly notice when it chooses to rob, rape, and kill.

Crime always has the drop on us. It looks for us. Why wouldn't you want to always be as well prepared as you possibly can?


If you'd like to know a little more about what I do exactly, you can just ask. I think what I wrote and others wrote on this thread should be enough to sway you to carry 24/7.
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Old June 18, 2013, 11:01 AM   #37
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Most won't ever say on an internet forum if they've shot someone.
I think that's a bit of a cop out, there is nothing to stop someone saying that they used their firearm in a self defence situation without going into details. I will start no I have never needed a firearm or other weapon for self defence. PS I would say the reason that few have said they used their firearm in self defence is because very few have.
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Old June 18, 2013, 11:11 AM   #38
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While it is true that very few people have used their firearms to shoot other humans, there are also some very good reasons for not going into details over the internet. I also strongly suspect that once someone posts that they did in fact shoot someone, those reading the posts are certainly going to inquire for more details.
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Old June 18, 2013, 11:28 AM   #39
manta49
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I also strongly suspect that once someone posts that they did in fact shoot someone, those reading the posts are certainly going to inquire for more details
I wasn't necessary talking about shooting someone I have seen posts that the person posting thought the fact that someone new he had a firearm defused a situation.

Example.
Quote:
Old May 29, 2013, 11:07 PM #1
kahrdriver11
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Posts: 9 I think I was "approached"... What do you think?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I recently moved to Utah from Virginia but this incident occurred in Virginia about 2 months ago.

I was driving my Ford SUV with my 5 month old daughter in the back seat. My carry gun that day was a Taurus TCP .380 in my satchel. (I normally carry a G19 but that particular day called for some very deep concealment). I pulled in to a Subway parking lot for lunch and sat there for a few minutes waiting for a really good song to finish on the radio before going inside.

While I was sitting there, I did a quick scan of the area to see if anyone was nearby. I saw a man walking towards Subway from the gas station across the street. This man "just didn't look quite right" as he was dressed in black jeans, black shirt, black trench coat, black sun glasses, blag do-rag/bandana thing, and a black shoulder bag. Bear in mind, it was a 95 degree Virginia summer day (lots of humidity) so I thought it was a bit weird for him to be dressed this way.

I didn't want to take my satchel in with me since I'd have to carry the car seat/baby anyway so I slid my pistol into my pocket and left my hand on it for some reason (I don't normally sit in the car with a gun in my hand) Anyway, I'm glad I did since I looked up and saw the guy dressed in black standing right next to my driver side window. My window was cracked and he asked me what was all over my side-view mirror (a bird had used my car as a toilet the night before). I immediately hit the power locks on my door and told him it was just bird crap.

He then REACHED INSIDE HIS BAG while saying "I've got something that will help with that". I thought to myself, Holy crap, I may have to shoot this guy. What does he pull out of the bag? A window scrubber that he used to wash my mirror off with and then reached back in the bag and pulled out a squeegee to clean the soap off my mirror. After that he just walked away. I don't know what he was really up to.

He never asked for money, he just said he wanted to clean my mirror. He didn't even try to wash my windshield which I was expecting he would. The whole thing just felt so weird and when I told my wife about it later she was totally perplexed. We reenacted the scenario later and from the angle that the guy was standing (she pretended to be him) she could see that I had my gun in my hand and we still wonder if he saw it and was deterred.

Ok, lessons learned:

1. He got way too close without my realizing it. After seeing him at first, I should have kept him in a line of sight until I no longer had any "spidey tingles"

2. ALWAYS have your gun with you whenever legal to do so. Also have it accessible... I believe the Lord was watching out for me that day and prompted me to move my gun from my bag to my pocket. I never could have gotten to it in time if this guy had actually tried something.

Questions:

1. Have any of you seen/heard of anyone doing something like this? Looking back even now this was such a strange experience.

2. Would I have been justified in drawing on this guy when his hand went into his bag? Bear in mind that I had my baby girl in the back seat. Obviously I didn't draw but I was as close as I've ever been.

3. Any other suggestions you have for me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance, and stay safe everyone!!
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Old June 18, 2013, 11:30 AM   #40
sigcurious
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Re: Self Defense/concealed carry

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtLumpy View Post
More details please...I'm fascinated by this. First, I always thought that the Mormons were one of the most gun friendly bunch in the universe. Second, there's a "law" (state law? or ?) against bringing a gun into an LDS church?


Sgt Lumpy
To clarify: The law in Utah prohibits all church/place of worship carry. It is not LDS specific. I cannot however speak to specific LDS policy.
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Old June 18, 2013, 12:18 PM   #41
Constantine
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Self Defense/concealed carry

Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49 View Post
I wasn't necessary talking about shooting someone I have seen posts that the person posting thought the fact that someone new he had a firearm defused a situation.

Example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manta49 View Post
I think that's a bit of a cop out, there is nothing to stop someone saying that they used their firearm in a self defence situation without going into details. I will start no I have never needed a firearm or other weapon for self defence. PS I would say the reason that few have said they used their firearm in self defence is because very few have.
I think you're confusing the different terms of "using" a firearm. No it's not a "cop out".

One "use" is you felt/feel good to have it at the time you thought you might need it, or grabbing onto or drawing deterred the situation.

To actually "USE" it, meaning...you shot someone after you pulled. No. Most won't say and no it's not a cop out. And Spats McGee is right. There will be people flocking to know details. And a lot of things could still be pending and unclear. So why go over it over the Internet. It's not to coolest thing in the world to talk about. It can be traumatic to think of deeply.
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Old June 18, 2013, 01:12 PM   #42
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Yes, when I read "use a firearm," I jumped straight to "shot someone." I didn't consider the option of simply displaying a firearm.
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Old June 18, 2013, 02:54 PM   #43
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How many of you have actually been forced to used a handgun in self defense and what situations would you recommend carrying a gun?
First one first: I have been forced to produce a handgun to defend against violent criminal actors on more than one occasion. No shots were fired. All of these incidents occurred several decades ago.

I would not recommend that anyone ever discuss in a public forum an incident involving a death resulting from the use of force. I would suggest that any discussion of a less serious incident, including drawing a gun, not occur until after the expiration of any applicable statutes of limitations.

I recommend carrying whenever it is permissible to do so. I do make one exception: when the sidewalks and lots are covered with ice, I do not carry. I consider the risk of exposure to attack lower, and at the same time, I choose to mitigate the risk of injury that might be caused by falling on a concealed weapon.
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Old June 18, 2013, 04:16 PM   #44
SgtLumpy
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I recommend carrying whenever it is permissible to do so. I do make one exception: when the sidewalks and lots are covered with ice
I never carry when the sidewalks are covered with ice, here in Phoenix...


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Old June 18, 2013, 07:16 PM   #45
skoro
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Self Defense/concealed carry

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanh51
What do you guys do?
Generally speaking, I slip a compact handgun into my pocket when I leave the house. I do not carry around the home, but I keep a pair of loaded S&W revolvers at opposite ends of the place, where only I and my wife know the locations. I have a low profile lifestyle and am not a likely target. That said, I live very close to the US-Mexico border and the years-long violence south of the fence is a concern, even though it's settled down quite a bit recently.

Protecting yourself and your family is a personal responsibility and each of us has to weigh the risks in our individual situations and plan accordingly. But it's always best to be prepared. Keep your head on a swivel and maintain situational awareness.
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Old June 21, 2013, 10:38 AM   #46
ryanh51
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Just to clarify: I didn't expect anyone to discuss times when they actually shot another human being. I'm sure there are times when this is necessary and happens but I guess in my mind I picture that most of the time the possession and display of a handgun would be enough to deter MOST threats(obviously not if the potential threat also has a gun himself/herself).

A bit of an oversight on my part O.o.
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Old June 21, 2013, 11:22 AM   #47
OldMarksman
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Quote:
Posted by ryanh51: I'm sure there are times when this [(ie, shooting)] is necessary and happens but I guess in my mind I picture that most of the time the possession and display of a handgun would be enough to deter MOST threats...
There are. Happens frequently.

But unless the display of the weapon was lawfully justified, the actor could get into a lot of trouble.

Hence the advice to not discuss it in a public forum, or with anyone else, for that matter.

Last edited by OldMarksman; June 21, 2013 at 11:49 AM.
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Old June 23, 2013, 03:18 PM   #48
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So what happens when you display your gun and some punk (while dancing about in his meth haze) says, "Go ahead and shoot me." Now what do you do?

Something else to think about.

I acutally had this happen in a Key West boatyard when some whacked out guy tried to board my boat. I racked the shotgun but he wouldn't leave though he didn't board. He kept standing on the dock trying to incite me. I told him to please just climb aboard but he wasn't that stupid. Fortunately the PD showed up and arrested him for tresspassing and drug possession.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; June 23, 2013 at 03:38 PM. Reason: delete vulgarity
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Old June 23, 2013, 03:38 PM   #49
manta49
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There are. Happens frequently.

But unless the display of the weapon was lawfully justified, the actor could get into a lot of trouble.

Hence the advice to not discuss it in a public forum, or with anyone else, for that matter.
How do you know that it happens frequently if you are no one else discusses it.
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Old June 23, 2013, 05:19 PM   #50
SgtLumpy
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I told him to please just climb aboard but he wasn't that stupid
One of the two of you was being stupid.


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