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Old June 12, 2013, 10:16 AM   #1
cptmclark
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Old Gold Cup, new problem

My series 70 Gold Cup has begun occasionally failing to extract and failing to feed, probably connected problems. The FTE is easy to see, but when it does extract it has also failed to eject. Of course then there is a FT feed as well cause the new round gets jammed with the old case. There is not a quick clearing way for this probmem because the mag gets jammed with the half loadeed cartridge.

In my ameteur analysis I'm guess ing the extractor might be weak, and I also suspect the recoil spring because sometimes it jams a fired case that has extracted. I don't know how to diagnose a magazine problem that is intermitant, so maybe I need help with that too.

I hate to just throw new parts at it, because I enjoy learning about this stuff. Any wisdom, ideas, suggestions gratefully accepted here.

Thansk,


MIke
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Old June 12, 2013, 10:52 AM   #2
polyphemus
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"I hate to just throw new parts at it,"
Same here.Field strip that unit,take out the extractor and carefully look at it
if it shows no sign of damage then adjust the tension to 27 oz +-.
Take a good look at the internals while you're at it wipe it off,couple of drops
of oil where it shows the need reassemble and test it out.
You are not using funky bullets are you? 230 gn FMJ RN please.
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Old June 12, 2013, 11:06 AM   #3
cptmclark
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Only potentially funky bullets are Ranier plated 230 RN. The same problem exists with Sierra and Hornady bullets though. I have always thought that if the extractor won't snap over a chambered cartridge rim that it has good enough tension. Maybe wrong. How do I test tension on the extractor

Doubt that weak recoil spring would affect extraction but maybe the failure to eject?
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Old June 12, 2013, 11:39 AM   #4
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Almost certainly the extractor; it could be "clocked" wrong or the tip has broken off.

Jim
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Old June 12, 2013, 11:56 AM   #5
polyphemus
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"Doubt that weak recoil spring would affect extraction but maybe the failure to eject?"
Those stovepipes are a symptom of an under tensioned extractor.
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Old June 12, 2013, 03:12 PM   #6
polyphemus
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"How do I test tennsion on the extractor"
Ok.this is a rather simple process,you can do it without special gadgets since
it is not a precision job.Take a small hardware bag and fill it with enough of
those Rainiers to the weight you're looking for.If you can double check with a
postage scale even better.Now loosely tie a thin strong thread around a spent cartridge extraction groove and attach it to the bag.
Insert the cartridge into the extractor claw and slowly lift the slide.
If you have never adjusted an extractor I can give you some tips just say so.
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Old June 12, 2013, 08:36 PM   #7
cptmclark
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"Ok.this is a rather simple process,you can do it without special gadgets since
it is not a precision job.Take a small hardware bag and fill it with enough of
those Rainiers to the weight you're looking for.If you can double check with a
postage scale even better.Now loosely tie a thin strong thread around a spent cartridge extraction groove and attach it to the bag.
Insert the cartridge into the extractor claw and slowly lift the slide.
If you have never adjusted an extractor I can give you some tips just say so. "
Well, I'm pretty humble but though relatively intuitive I have questions about these instructions. First, "the weight your looking for" would be...what? Now with my string tied loosly around the case extractor groove and tied to the bag, I'm to "lift" the slide".
Lift in what direction. Is the thing disassembled at this time?
I'm imagining the assembled gun with this bag of weights tied to the extractor itself to see if it would bend at that weight. Not right? Then stick in the case, into the groove against the bolt, string attached, turn the gun on its side and lift to see if it releases the case? Am I getting close?
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Old June 12, 2013, 09:07 PM   #8
polyphemus
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extractor tension

You are not bending the extractor with the weight,you are testing its tension
on the cartridge,I think I suggested a 27oz weight above if each bullet weighs 230gn you can do the math from there.Take the slide off insert the cartridge
in the extractor claw and vertically lift ,the extractor should hold the weighted bag,add a bullet and it should not.
The commercial gadget is a thin ring of the same diameter as the groove and
a hole to hold a scale you pull on the scale and it tells you the holding tension.
Extractors by nature loose tension over time but it is not hard to get them back to specs,and they are never right when new,one thing I would not do is follow
youtube directions some of those fellows are clowns.
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Old June 13, 2013, 09:01 AM   #9
Hunter Customs
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There's much more to the extractor then just proper tension.
As for the amount of tension 16 to 20 ounces is plenty on a 45acp.

Some will say with the slide off the gun and the barrel removed, place a loaded round against the breech face of the slide, if the extractor holds it in place you have the proper tension, I don't buy this as the extractor may be to tight.

You also need to make sure the extractor is not clocking, if it is, it can definitely cause failure to feed and failure to eject problems.

If you are unsure of how to fix or check these problems it may be best to consult with a smith in person about what your gun is doing.

If the extractor in your gun is loosing it's tension I recommend it be replaced with a good quality 4330 or 4340 extractor, that will cure the problem.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
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Old June 13, 2013, 09:40 AM   #10
g.willikers
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Extractor how to:
http://blog.wilsoncombat.com/caliber...y-bill-wilson/
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Old June 13, 2013, 11:13 AM   #11
polyphemus
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M1911 extractors

"As for the amount of tension 16 to 20 ounces is plenty on a 45acp"
Respected gunsmith and author Jerry Kuhnhausen recommends 31/2 to 41/2 lb
rim pressure for standard ball ammo and 31/2 to 4 lb for wadcutter style.
Today's replacement extractors require no farther modification other than
pressure adjustment and the "clocking" issue if present is the direct result of
an out of specs firing pin stop,a small amount of rotational tolerance should
not cause any problems.
The 27oz figure I suggested is not a magic number,it's how I have resolved
fte and ftf issues that I have run into.I have no gunsmithing tools and if I
haven't needed any by now it is unlikely that I'll need them in the future.
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Old June 13, 2013, 01:53 PM   #12
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The Bill Wilson link is good stuff. One issue that I rarely see addressed is hook travel, when doing the usual, "Will the hook hold a live round" test.
I had (have) a gun that appeared to have good tension in static testing, but only if the rim was positioned exactly centered on the firing pin hole, which the round isn't during much of the extract/eject cyle.
A soon as the case was pushed below center, it would fall off the extractor hook, as the extractor could not move inward, toward the firing pin, far enough to maintain tension.
I could increase tension, but since the hook was bottomed in the tunnel except when positioned at 3:00 on the rim, it still only increased the static tension, and the gun still didn't run.
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Old June 13, 2013, 03:24 PM   #13
polyphemus
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"as the extractor could not move inward, toward the firing pin, far enough to maintain tension."
That being the case you can relieve the section of the claw that bottoms out,
this sounds like an easy fix,did you try that?
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Old June 13, 2013, 05:48 PM   #14
cptmclark
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Thank you for all the ideas and wisdom about the extraction problems. As this gun is 40 some years old, is there any reason to not just replace the extractor? (If it doesn't pass the test)? Do they need fitting? I once did this operation when building a better gun from a cheapo, and there wasn't much to it. I excaped the clocking problem by luck I guess. If I do that, should I get one from Colt, (the gun was made by Colt) or are other after market makers products as good? Since this thing seems to be basically a spring, I would guess it would get tired eventually. If so and I bend it to re-establish proper tension, would it be likely to relax sooner than a new one?
Although I've had it a while, it hasn't had much use.
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Old June 13, 2013, 08:30 PM   #15
polyphemus
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"As this gun is 40 some years old, is there any reason to not just replace the extractor?"
"I hate to just throw new parts at it,"
"Do they need fitting?"
No.
"If I do that, should I get one from Colt?"
Yes.
"If so and I bend it to re-establish proper tension, would it be likely to relax sooner than a new one?"
A guess would be:maybe.
Good luck.
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Old June 14, 2013, 10:29 AM   #16
RickB
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Quote:
"as the extractor could not move inward, toward the firing pin, far enough to maintain tension."
That being the case you can relieve the section of the claw that bottoms out,
this sounds like an easy fix,did you try that?
That's exactly what I did, but the Wilson instructions provide a method of testing for that problem, and most adjustment instructions focus only on bending the extractor to adjust static tension.
As for tension, I was having what I thought was an "extractor issue", so I went about bending, polishing, beveling, etc., chasing what turned out to be a non-existent problem.
In the process, I adjusted the tension from being next to nothing, all the way to so excessive that a 16# recoil spring couldn't overcome the drag, but everywhere in between, the gun ran. I suspect the window of operation was between a few ounces and a few pounds.
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Old June 14, 2013, 10:59 AM   #17
polyphemus
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"That's exactly what I did,"
Nominal specs for that section are .143" They should run at .139" to be safe
in that department.Good idea to have the mics handy when you install after
market parts.
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Old June 15, 2013, 02:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
"Ok.this is a rather simple process,you can do it without special gadgets since
it is not a precision job.Take a small hardware bag and fill it with enough of
those Rainiers to the weight you're looking for.If you can double check with a
postage scale even better.Now loosely tie a thin strong thread around a spent cartridge extraction groove and attach it to the bag.
Insert the cartridge into the extractor claw and slowly lift the slide.
If you have never adjusted an extractor I can give you some tips just say so. "
I would think one that comes to an internet forum, brags about not owning any tools but knows all about tuning 1911 extractors and using a makeshift device to check the tension would at least know how many bullets it took to check that 27 ounces of tension they suggested.

Instead he tells the person he's giving his vast knowledge to, to do the math and figure out how many bullets it takes swinging in a plastic bag, suspended by a piece of string from the cartridge brass, held in place by the extractor.

The internet can be amusing.

Quote:
Well, I'm pretty humble but though relatively intuitive I have questions about these instructions. First, "the weight your looking for" would be...what? Now with my string tied loosly around the case extractor groove and tied to the bag, I'm to "lift" the slide".
Lift in what direction. Is the thing disassembled at this time?
I'm imagining the assembled gun with this bag of weights tied to the extractor itself to see if it would bend at that weight. Not right? Then stick in the case, into the groove against the bolt, string attached, turn the gun on its side and lift to see if it releases the case? Am I getting close?
To answer your question on how many 230 gr bullets it takes to weigh the 27 ounces of recommended tension that some suggest, it's 56.347826.

Now the method I use ( I do buy tools) is a trigger pull gauge and the extractor gauge set that Jack Weigand (a very talented pistolsmith) invented.
The set contains two small brass plates, with a hole in each end of each plate to attach the trigger pull gauge, each plate end is caliber specific.
The four calibers that can be checked with the set are, 9mm,38 super, 10mm and 45.

The gauge set comes with good instructions on how to use, using them you can get a good accurate reading on the amount of tension your extractor is set at, if your extractor is tuned correctly.

Now I sure do not claim to know all there is to know about the 1911 pistol, however after building or working on many 1911's since 1969 (many of which had very small ejection windows) I have learned a thing or two about tuning extractors.

You may purchase a new extractor, stick it in the gun and it may run fine, but it also may not.
If you are going to spend the money on a new extractor I highly recommend a good 4330 or 4340 extractor over the stock Colt item.
I've seen Colt extractors that would not hold tension for more then 500 rounds.

Again I suggest you check on have your gun checked for extractor clocking before buying a new extractor, it may save you some money.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
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Old June 15, 2013, 03:43 PM   #19
cptmclark
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Thank you to every one. LET'S PLAY NICE NOW.

I welcome the best ideas of each responder and am grateful for all of them.
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Old June 15, 2013, 09:09 PM   #20
polyphemus
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"To answer your question on how many 230 gr bullets it takes to weigh the 27 ounces of recommended tension that some suggest, it's 56.347826."
Not at at all,simple arithmetic tells us that the answer to the question is 51.
Internet conversion sites will verify that figure,the numbers don't lie:
230x51=11730 and 11730 grains = 26.811oz
Simplicity trumps ranting.
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Old June 16, 2013, 03:07 PM   #21
Hunter Customs
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Quote:
To answer your question on how many 230 gr bullets it takes to weigh the 27 ounces of recommended tension that some suggest, it's 56.347826.
cptmclark,

I do apologize to you as the above information I originally posted is in error.
My math was correct, but I figured it using the Apothecaries' method for weight.

The correct answer is 51.358695 230 gr bullets to equal 27 ounces of tension.
Which is more tension then you will need if the extractor is tuned correctly.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
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Old June 16, 2013, 04:25 PM   #22
polyphemus
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Quote:
cptmclark,

I do apologize to you as the above information I originally posted is in error.
My math was correct, but I figured it using the Apothecaries' method for weight
.
OP please do not be misled by the above (all of the above) the math was incorrect to begin with and so was the explanation and so is problably
everything else in the post.
Now this from Wikipedia,and by the way all unit converters will show Troy and
Apothecary grains to be the same.
Quote:
The grain was the legal foundation of traditional English weight systems,[3] and is the only unit that is equal throughout the troy, avoirdupois, and apothecaries' systems of mass
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Old June 17, 2013, 08:28 AM   #23
Hunter Customs
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Quote:
OP please do not be misled by the above (all of the above) the math was incorrect to begin with and so was the explanation and so is problably
everything else in the post.




One grain does equal the same in all three measuring systems, however the difference is in the number of grains in an ounce in the three measures of weight.

Troy and Apothecary has 480 grains in an ounce.

Avoirdupois or what some call commercial weight has 437.5 grains in an ounce.

So yes, along with the information I posted on extractors my math was correct both times.

27 ounces of Troy or Apothecary weight equals 12960 grains.
27 ounces of Avoirdupois weight equals 11812.5 grains.

"do the math"

Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
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Old June 17, 2013, 10:22 AM   #24
polyphemus
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Quote:
"do the math
I did,75 angels fit exactly in the head of a pin.
Nobody uses the apothecary system in the gun industry,for anything.
Only those who wish to confuse or rationalize errors mix systems.
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Old June 19, 2013, 12:46 PM   #25
James K
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It is 76.397865436783 angels. I wish people would be more precise.

Jim
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