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Old June 12, 2013, 12:29 PM   #26
zincwarrior
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Well as a stranger, I congratulate you on managing to acquire such an inventory without the wife commencing Operation Panhandle as a veto device after seeing the bill.

EDIT: I can understand Ettin's point, even though I don't necssarily agree with it in all instances.

Last edited by zincwarrior; June 12, 2013 at 12:46 PM.
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Old June 12, 2013, 09:40 PM   #27
Paul B.
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When my kids were growing up, I had guns around. They were told that any tie they wanted to see of, or show one to one of their friends to ask me. I never refused. Never had a problem.
My youngest daughter will be here in two days with her four kids. Two early teens and two very young ones. Looks like all toys will be in the safes except my CCW pieces, a 9mm and a .38 snub BUG.
The older ones will be given a detailed lecture on gun safety; the same one I teach in Hunter Ed class. They live in Texas and I have a good idea of how many homes have guns. Maybe it'll help keep them out of trouble.
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Old June 12, 2013, 11:04 PM   #28
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a gun that is not locked up or on your person is a free for all, even in your own home.
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Old June 13, 2013, 08:07 AM   #29
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If you do not have kids you are not as aware of your surroundings as they relate to a young child. Speeking from experience!
Try to think of them as little thiefs that want to get into everything, as soon as they show up start securing everything valuable and deadly.
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Old June 13, 2013, 10:30 AM   #30
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Quote:
If you do not have kids you are not as aware of your surroundings as they relate to a young child. Speaking from experience!
Try to think of them as little thieves that want to get into everything, as soon as they show up start securing everything valuable and deadly. __________________
I have read a couple follow ups to this story. Apparently it took less than a minute for this to happen. I would say the better option is to already make it a habit to always secure your weapons so you don't have to remember if someone shows up.
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Old June 13, 2013, 10:48 AM   #31
zincwarrior
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Consider this scenario. I work during the week in one city and commute back home during the weekend.

During the week no one comes to my location, except as a stopoff point to going to the other house in case of a hurricane. Literally no one I know in the other city has children that themselves aren't grown adults. They don't come over either.

At that location I have a loaded shotgun in one room, and a pistol in a book sized chest on the table next to where I sit. Why should someone in my circumstance be concerned at all?

If BG's get in they aren't going to be stopped by a simple chest or gun vault.
No one else comes there.
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Old June 13, 2013, 11:00 AM   #32
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zincwarrior
...No one else comes there.
Maybe and maybe not. People have often made categorical statements like "no one ever" or "never" or "it can't happen." Sometimes they've been correct, but sometimes they've been wrong.

Counting on "no one ever" or "never" or "it can't happen" are examples of the human capacity for rationalization.
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Old June 13, 2013, 11:08 AM   #33
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To me, the "unannounced visit" aspect of this story is rather sobering. I wonder how many of us who are either pre- or post-children actually think about this kind of circumstance. I consider myself to be quite vigilant about gun safety, and although a 4-year-old would not find an unattended firearm in my living room, neither can I honestly say that every firearm is always under lock and key if it is not on me. I use a quick-access box when company is expected, whether the company is child or adult. But what would happen if the unannounced visit happened right after I finished cleaning a HD pistol after a range trip? What about my wife's bedside pistol? What about leaving a pistol in a drawer or counter top when you are in the shower? Little kids don't respect such boundaries because they haven't learned them yet. The real-life answers aren't as easy as the typed generalizations.
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Old June 13, 2013, 11:22 AM   #34
zincwarrior
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zincwarrior
...No one else comes there.

Maybe and maybe not. People have often made categorical statements like "no one ever" or "never" or "it can't happen." Sometimes they've been correct, but sometimes they've been wrong.

Counting on "no one ever" or "never" or "it can't happen" are examples of the human capacity for rationalization.
I'll rephrase. Using a standard deviation matrix, there is a statistical certainty no one goes there.

I know of no one with little kids in that city.
I know of no one with little kids.
I've never invited anyone to that location.
No one besides me and the wife know the address (its not a secret or anything), or have keys to such.

Anyone entering is a tresspasser, and my concern for their welfare is appropriate.
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Old June 13, 2013, 02:33 PM   #35
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People will make their own decisions, and rationalize things to suit their needs. Ultimately, one truth has been made evident by all of these disastrous events:

Firearms that are secured 100% of the time are NEVER involved in these accidents.

Nobody who ever had this type of thing happen to them actually thought that it would. They made a Condition White ("nothing bad can happen") decision about firearm storage, and then a Bad Thing happened. "Situational awareness" extends to more than just identifying potential threats outside the home. It also involves recognizing that making safe decisions starts in the home.
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Old June 13, 2013, 02:39 PM   #36
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Every generation of my family, as far back as we can find (which goes back further than the USA) has lived in a home with at least one unsecured (and normally loaded) gun. The gun, loaded or not, is not the problem.

Improperly trained (if trained at all) children, unsupervised (and any adult in the same category) are the problems. Deal with it the best way you see fit.

Most folks lock up everything. Some lock up everything but the defense gun(s). Some don't lock any of it. Your life, your choice as I see it.

One thing I do, if not securing the "emergency response piece" when I'm going to be away for a while, I don't leave it loaded. No sense giving a thief a loaded gun. Sure, they could find the ammo and load it, they found the gun, right? Ok, fine. But at least they're going to have to work at it a bit more...

My current situation? Kids grown, moved away. Nobody visits when I'm not there. Period.
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Old June 13, 2013, 02:43 PM   #37
zincwarrior
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Quote:
People will make their own decisions, and rationalize things to suit their needs. Ultimately, one truth has been made evident by all of these disastrous events:

Firearms that are secured 100% of the time are NEVER involved in these accidents.

Nobody who ever had this type of thing happen to them actually thought that it would. They made a Condition White ("nothing bad can happen") decision about firearm storage, and then a Bad Thing happened. "Situational awareness" extends to more than just identifying potential threats outside the home. It also involves recognizing that making safe decisions starts in the home.
Respectfully, one could also say that households with no firearms at all are never involved in these incidents either.
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Old June 13, 2013, 02:45 PM   #38
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Quote:
Firearms that are secured 100% of the time are NEVER involved in these accidents.
Cars that are parked in the garage 100% of the time are also NEVER involved in crashes....
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Old June 13, 2013, 02:49 PM   #39
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I have some of my guns on a rack for display. They are all fully operational, but do not have ammo in them or even in the same room. Would this also be frowned upon?
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Old June 13, 2013, 02:56 PM   #40
zincwarrior
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Quote:
Quote:
Firearms that are secured 100% of the time are NEVER involved in these accidents.

Cars that are parked in the garage 100% of the time are also NEVER involved in crashes....
Well a $2,500 bill from the body shop proves thats a false statement. Dreams of a shotgun for competition...bye bye...
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Old June 13, 2013, 03:55 PM   #41
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I agree, doesn't sound right. Iraq War veteran, "served with Special Forces"-?
I went through Special Forces training in 1969, came out very disillusioned, perhaps things have changed since then. The Army did a poor job of training people with small arms in my day, several more recently serving personnel have told me nothing's changed. There have been a number of these shootings by children recently, always helps to be able to blame someone who cannot be legally charged for their actions or otherwise held accountable.
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Old June 13, 2013, 04:25 PM   #42
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Little kids don't respect such boundaries because they haven't learned them yet. The real-life answers aren't as easy as the typed generalizations.
Everybody's different, but there are some kids who just aren't being taught those boundaries. Someone shouldn't bring a 4 or 5 year old to a friend's home and let them loose, and allow him to rummage around in an adult's bedroom, for example. I didn't when my children were young, but some people do.
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Old June 13, 2013, 04:36 PM   #43
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Everyone is talking about whether to keep your guns secured or not because someone with a child "might" stop by. Many here have no reason to expect children in their home and that's fine if you want to keep your loaded gun unsecured. I probably would too if I lived alone. But what hasn't been mentioned is what the guy answering the door should have done. He knows there is a gun/guns in the house and when he opened that door and invited them in the first thing he should have done was to excuse himself and go secure the guns. That was the fatal mistake here.
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Old June 13, 2013, 04:39 PM   #44
RBid
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Cars that are parked in the garage 100% of the time are also NEVER involved in crashes....
Your statement is both false, and indicative that you equate "secured" with locked up. I have a Glock 19 riding in a Galco King Tuk at 4 o'clock, under a cover garment. This firearm is secured, and is not "parked in the garage". When I take it off, it goes directly into a safe. It is under my control and inaccessible to others, 100% of the time.

Quote:
Respectfully, one could also say that households with no firearms at all are never involved in these incidents either.
No need to speculate on that. It's a true statement, and has been repeated ad nauseum.

I'm a very strong proponent of the Second Amendment, for a host of reasons. When reduced to simplest terms, my position is that firearms are about preservation. They help us preserve our lives, safety, security, and liberty. When we bring them into our lives, but apply Condition White filters to how we handle or store them, we are acting against their purpose. Through decisions to leave them unsecured, and through unsafe handling, people create the opportunity that their own tools of preservation can instead contribute to the owner being robbed of things that they hold dear.
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Old June 13, 2013, 04:47 PM   #45
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Your statement is both false, and indicative that you equate "secured" with locked up. I have a Glock 19 riding in a Galco King Tuk at 4 o'clock, under a cover garment. This firearm is secured, and is not "parked in the garage". When I take it off, it goes directly into a safe. It is under my control and inaccessible to others, 100% of the time.
As I had said before in this thread, we're not all lucky enough to live in a part of the country where the constitution applies. While what you're describing would be the best solution in the real world here in liberal land I'm not going to lock and unlock my weapon every single time I leave the house for a pack of bubble gum.
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Old June 13, 2013, 05:03 PM   #46
olddav
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Growing up I can not remember a time when we did not have firearms in our house. All loaded or at least you had to assume so, and none locked up, stored in a glass gun case or in desk drawers. We were allowed to handled and shoot them often, and by doing so we gained experience and knowledge. Under adult supervision we developed good habits and advanced understanding of how firearms fuctions.
While fear can be a good motivator it can also consume. If you feel you should secure your firearms at all time then by all means do so, as for me I will decided how to and when it is approtitate to secure the firearms in my home. Like the title says I have no children and no children visit my home.

Good Luck to all!

edited for grammar and such, too lazy to check spelling.
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Old June 13, 2013, 05:16 PM   #47
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We're 'post' children. Our offspring generally call ahead to give us time to hide/lockup/unload firearms that are normally lying around.

Once, an Iraqi vet and his family dropped in without notice. About a minute later, I realized 4 children were lined up at Parade Rest looking at a Glock I'd missed. I headed over in a panic and his wife said "Not to worry. They know better!"
It seems there isn't any forbidden fruit syndrome to worry about in that family. Each child, in turn was able to give me details about the firearm without touching it, straight from the manual, including ballistics. They ranged from 5-13. The 5 y.o. said she preferred the .44 mag., but mostly shoots her 38.
She must have weighed 60 pounds too.
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Old June 13, 2013, 05:18 PM   #48
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Interesting conversation.

My personal experience is that since she was two years old, my now teenage daughter has gone with me into the hunting fields. She has seen with her own eyes what it means to die. She has seen with her own eyes how people can use guns to kill. She respects the fact that the guns in our house can be deadly if they are handled incorrectly.

She also knows that they are fun and exciting to shoot. She knows, unconditionally, that if she wants to shoot one of our guns, all she needs to do is ask. She knows, unconditionally, that if one of her friends is around and even thinks of messing with our guns, it is off limits until I am advised.

I works.

Some one will say - "What if you are not home?" I say - One must trust in their children and trust they are raised correctly.

I will not tell you what to do with your guns, or your children. This is my story.
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Old June 13, 2013, 05:48 PM   #49
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Quote:
While fear can be a good motivator it can also consume.
Securing them isn't about fear, any more than owning a firearm is about fear. Each is about awareness that bad things can happen.

Quote:
We were allowed to handled and shoot them often, and by doing so we gained experience and knowledge. Under adult supervision we developed good habits and advanced understanding of how firearms fuctions.
I am on board with teaching proper handling and safety. Education is certainly a key to reducing the chance that something will happen. My choice is to ensure that they are only handled under supervision.
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Old June 13, 2013, 10:53 PM   #50
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people can live in their homes any way they choose. parents of small children NEED to be vigilant in their supervision.

a parent's control over their children is paramount. do NOT let them approach strange animals. do NOT let them near swimming pools, unless you are at their side. do NOT let them play with harmful objects...knives, matches, chemicals, GUNS.

they are YOUR kids and YOUR responsibility.
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