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Old June 10, 2013, 10:24 AM   #1
mykeal
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Shipping black powder firearms to Michigan

A member mentioned (in an earlier thread) that Traditions refuses to ship black powder firearms to Michigan. Indeed, in the description of each black powder firearm they sell, their web site lists Michigan as one of several states to which black powder firearms cannot be shipped.

I recently sent the following email to Traditions challenging that policy and requesting they correct their ad copy:

Quote:
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 7:48 AM
To: admin'at'traditionsfirearms.com
Subject: Shipping bp firearms to Michigan

Dear Sir,

Your web site continues to state that black powder firearms cannot be
shipped to Michigan.

There are no Michigan state or Federal laws or regulations that prevent
shipping bp firearms to Michigan.

Michigan does not require registration of bp firearms, nor do they require a
purchase permit to acquire one. Those laws were changed several years ago
(2004).

Please correct your web site and join us in the 21st century.
Today I received the following response:

Quote:
From: "Alison Hall"
Subject: Re: Shipping bp firearms to Michigan
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 10:38:38 -0400

Greetings,

Thank you for your email. Previously we, along with other retailers such as Bass Pro and Cabelas, had not been shipping to certain states (like Michigan) due to the laws being restrictive or unclear. Cabelas currently does not allows orders for black powder rifles to be placed over the internet and instead require customers call a certain number to place an order. We are always reviewing laws and making sure we are following them correctly. We will again take a look at the laws and determine what we feel is the best course of action. We appreciate your thoughts and will certainly be looking into this. If we are able to determine that there are no restrictions at this time, we will certainly make the change on our website.

Thank you again and have a nice day.

Sincerely,
Alison Hall
Marketing Coordinator
1375 Boston Post Rd.
Old Saybrook, CT 06475
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Old June 10, 2013, 02:27 PM   #2
PetahW
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Sounds like an "attaboy", to me........



.
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Old June 10, 2013, 06:35 PM   #3
Captchee
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Quote:
Sounds like an "attaboy", to me........
sounds more like a "ya well thank you for your opinion" to me .

Some how all to many of us seem to forget that companies have the right to refuse service or dictate what service they provide.

So in other words , what im reading is that the person writing you that e-mail has told you, in a tactful way , that they will decide whats in their best interests .
If its in their best interest , they will change , if not , well I wouldn’t look for them to change their polices any time soon
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Old June 10, 2013, 07:39 PM   #4
mykeal
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I'm sure that's what she meant.

It's interesting to me that Traditions, and other sutlers as well, take it upon themselves to 'police' their customers. If they perceive an issue, such as a local jurisdiction restricting or prohibiting the shipment of bp firearms into their jurisdiction, they refuse to make the shipment. However, in every case, the local regulations penalize the buyer, not the seller, for receiving a bp firearm. The seller has no legal responsibility to refuse shipping; it's all on the buyer.

I'm sure we all feel much safer knowing that Traditions, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shop, etc. are all looking out for us.
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Old June 10, 2013, 08:21 PM   #5
Dan_D
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Thanks for attempting Mykeal. I've had several private sellers initially refuse to ship frontstuffers to me "because [insert retailer here] won't ship there". Most agreed to after I showed them the actual regulations, but such sites are spreading a great deal of misinformation.
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Old June 10, 2013, 08:55 PM   #6
Captchee
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not disagreeing with you all . but at the same time i dont get how they are spreading miss information by simply stating that they dont ship to a given state ?
Im also rather torn because on one hand I understand the issue some of you are having . But on the other hand , I wish more companies would stand up and just say NO and mean it .
Take Remington and their threats to leave NY if the current gun laws were passed . IMO they should have . They should have shut down the factory , laid the people off and refused to sell any firearm to any retailer within the state . but they didn’t .
I know its not good for those living in the state but there are consequences for peoples actions . It really is a two way street. We most certainly have the right to not buy a given product from a given company based on what we feel their actions are concerning any given issue . But at the same time that company has the right to say ; HA , we are not going to ship a product to a given state based on its actions
Possibly this is more political then just the wording of the Michigan or …………. laws
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Old June 10, 2013, 09:09 PM   #7
Dan_D
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I simply wish that if they continue to hold their current position, that they would adopt the more correct "we choose not to" over statements implying that there is a legal issue preventing them from doing so.
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Old June 10, 2013, 09:38 PM   #8
David13
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So you guys are all lawyers and you know there is no issue?
Do they have legal counsel available to them? Do they try to follow the law, so that they are not closed down?
There are some ridiculously narrow interpretations of the state laws and they all vary. 50 states, 50 legal codes.
I know they all ship black powder to California.
Now maybe they look at Cabela's, knowing that Cabela's is big and profitable enough to have lawyers review all those laws and advise accordingly.
They could save money that way. And then they imitate Cabela's. It sounds like that is what they are saying they do.
Every state has different laws.
I know there are a whole lot of lawyers in California, and a whole lot of gun owner lawyers in California, and if a legal issue comes up, they argue the ideas, and can point out nationwide some appropriate interpretations. And thus CA is on the approved list, and MI is not. But maybe MI code reads a little different and it can't be done.
If they want to stay in business they have to follow the law.
dc
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Old June 11, 2013, 06:09 PM   #9
mykeal
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No, I'm not a lawyer. I am a long time Michigan citizen. I'm a member of the Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners. They lobby long and hard, and, I might add, very successfully, for sense and reason in Michigan's gun laws. We're not perfect yet, but we're getting better. And through MCGRO, I know Michigan's laws (MCGRO publishes a book detailing Michigan's gun laws, AG interpretations - which have legal standing in MI - and the supporting information behind each one). A new edition is published every time a change occurs.

I know, for a fact, that there are no laws, regulations or AG interpretations in Michigan which prevent anyone from shipping a black powder firearm to a citizen of this state. I also know that there was a time in MI when it was necessary to get a permit and have a 'safety inspection' by the local sheriff and that some interpreted that as applying to all firearms - this was changed in 2004 and the changes are documented in the MCGRO book. But even then compliance with the law was the responsibility of the BUYER, not the seller or shipper. Even then the sulter's prohibition had no basis in law.

Traditions, Cabela's, and the others, have no right to be telling me that they CAN'T ship a black powder firearm to Michigan. It's not true. They're lying, plain and simple. I don't know why, but that's the simple truth. Perhaps they're ignorant, unaware of the 2004 change. However, Cabela's in particular has two retail outlets in this state, and many employees who live here and know our laws also. They'll sell me a black powder firearm over the counter and let me walk out into the great MI outdoors with no (that's zero, zilch, nada, nunca) registration, NICS check or any other state or federal rigamarol. So they can't plead ignorance. And Traditions has been made aware of the 2004 law change many times by many different people, so they have no excuse either.

And don't forget this other little fact: even in the places where there are restrictions on the ownership and possession of black powder firearms (I'm thinking of NY and NJ in particular) the laws/regulations place no burden or penalty on the shipper - it's all on the buyer. So Traditions, Cabela's, etc. are playing the Big Brother role, protecting you from being in violation, assuming you are ignorant and need someone to look over you. Who gave them that job? Certainly none of us - they took it upon themselves.

You don't get how they are spreading misinformation? Let me spell it out: they're implying that there's a law saying they're prohibited from shipping black powder firearms to some jurisdictions. That's not true. That's how they're spreading misinformation.
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Old June 11, 2013, 08:28 PM   #10
Captchee
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while i can see and understand your point , the fact is they have every right to tell you they wont sell you something as long as it doesn’t discriminate base of sex , religion or race and now sexual preference i guess .
I would as such agree with David in that just because you or any of us , don’t see a loop hole , that doesn’t mean their attorneys don’t see a likely case where they could be held responsible.
Also as I said before maybe it more politics . Does your state require companies that sell on the internet to collect taxes .IE Is there something about the way the state you live in regulates firearms sales ?
I ask because I don’t know .
But in the end , it still doesn’t mater , they say NO and that’s their right , its their product

Quote:
You don't get how they are spreading misinformation? Let me spell it out: they're implying that there's a law saying they're prohibited from shipping black powder firearms to some jurisdictions. That's not true. That's how they're spreading misinformation.
i dont think they are saying that at all . what i read them as saying is that they dont trust the wording of your laws and there fore they wont ship to your state. In your e-mail it states

Quote:
we, along with other retailers such as Bass Pro and Cabelas, had not been shipping to certain states (like Michigan) due to the laws being restrictive or unclear.
now let me point out that it doesnt say what laws. so somewhere they must feel that your laws dont favor them or leaves them open in some way .
like david mentioned , they have people whos jb is to look at and consider such things and since there is a loss of money for the company by not shipping to you . the it would apear that the loss to the company is less then the possable cost of shipping to you

Last edited by Captchee; June 11, 2013 at 08:36 PM.
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Old June 12, 2013, 09:30 AM   #11
PetahW
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Nope - No company is obligated to do business with ANYONE, anywhere. AFAIK, it's still a free country, that way.

Likewise, NOBODY is obligated to do ANY business with a company which refuses to sell them from one hand, but will gladly take their money with the other hand for something else they sell.

Why I no longer do ANY business with Cabela's after they refused to ship a C&B revolver to me, citing my state's laws (non-existent, also) - but Bass Pro did so w/o a qualm the following day.

Discriminatory sellers are not the only game in town (or online).

.
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Old June 12, 2013, 04:07 PM   #12
Captchee
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Quote:
Nope - No company is obligated to do business with ANYONE, anywhere. AFAIK, it's still a free country, that way.

Likewise, NOBODY is obligated to do ANY business with a company which refuses to sell them from one hand, but will gladly take their money with the other hand for something else they sell.

Exactly
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Old June 15, 2013, 03:09 AM   #13
ChaperallCat
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michigan state law, any handgun is a handgun, regardless of age or ignition.

you have to be 21 to purchase a handgun in michigan. not meeting that age requirement is a crime. and cabelas making a potential customer take five minutes to hit the public notary at the bank and mail a form in, is simple and logical. if they merely send it to anyone witha credit card, any teenager can simply buy it with mommas debit card.

at the same time, each county is allowed to do things on its own, even as late as 2011 many counties needed no purchase permit, but simply required the gun to be registered with the county sheriff because all handguns need to be registered.
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Old June 15, 2013, 06:33 AM   #14
mykeal
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Wow. That's not even close to correct.
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Old June 15, 2013, 05:38 PM   #15
ChaperallCat
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actually it is correct, in michigan a handgun is a handgun, only difference is made to antigues, antique replicas not needing a permit to purchase.

however the state still needs you to fill that little form out so they know you have it. actually call up the michigan state police firearms unit in lansing, they will fill you in.

sure, some county sherriffs will waive that if they like you. but if you dont register it, its a 50 dollar fine.
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Old June 16, 2013, 05:51 PM   #16
Mr.Guido
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originally posted by chaperallcat
Quote:
at the same time, each county is allowed to do things on its own, even as late as 2011 many counties needed no purchase permit, but simply required the gun to be registered with the county sheriff because all handguns need to be registered.
and

Quote:
however the state still needs you to fill that little form out so they know you have it.
and

Quote:
some county sherriffs will waive that if they like you. but if you dont register it, its a 50 dollar fine.

Thank you for clarifying this, It should now be abundantly clear to everyone that you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
Sec. 2.

A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.


History: 1990, Act 319, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991
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Old June 16, 2013, 07:03 PM   #17
ChaperallCat
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actually talk to the state police. they have an idea of what the laws are.

the state of michigan has no law in the books saying that its legal to open carry a firearm in public, OFF of your own property and public land outside of hunting hours.
its merely legal because each state attorney general has signed a letter in their first week of letter that states there is no law forbidding it on the books. however there are jurisdictions that are allowed to circumnavigate the attorney general by creating "brandishing laws" that make it a crime to open carry in public. sure they dont charge you with that misdemeanor brandishing if you put the gun away when asked to by police.

you need to go to the state police website, and look at all the big pdf rule compilations. youll notice a handgun is a handgun. regardless of loading, ignition, or if it uses cartridges or not.
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Old June 16, 2013, 08:31 PM   #18
Mr.Guido
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Quote:
however there are jurisdictions that are allowed to circumnavigate the attorney general by creating "brandishing laws" that make it a crime to open carry in public.
Again your own words betray your profound ignorance of the law. Here is some free advice,

(1) never ask a law enforcement official to interpret the law
(2) if you see blue text in a post try clicking on it to learn something new
(3) google the term preemption to get a better understanding of why the statute cited above discredits much of what you have posted.
(4) research your facts before posting them publicly.
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Old June 17, 2013, 07:28 AM   #19
ChaperallCat
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yet then why is it that just last year when i asked the state police, AND the local county sherrif, they both said "no permit to purchase through the mail is needed. but you still need to fill this form out so we know you have it".

if im imagining it, why do i have the three little cards tucked under my 44 colt, and the state has the 4th?
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Old June 17, 2013, 08:51 AM   #20
mykeal
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Because both of the people you relied on do not know the current law. This is not uncommon. I've already given you the way to solve that problem: read the law. It's very easy to do: get the MCRGO book.

By the way, you might ask these "experts" when the last time was they participated in a successful prosecution for failure to 'register' a black powder firearm.
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Old June 17, 2013, 09:31 AM   #21
Captchee
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Possibly MyKeal , that’s part of the problem . For what ever reason , the law just isn’t as clear as it would seem .
While its not related to your state , an experience I can relate this to .
When I was a boy my father was a CO here in Idaho . I can remember setting with him in meetings where enforcement officers would be going over new law and rules changes.
Seemed each officer would often have a different interpretation of the laws .
Some would have a broad view , others a narrow view .
When that would happen , which happened a lot , a clarification would be ask for from the legal team. that’s the definition that would be followed until such time as the courts defined the actual meaning of the law.
Over time as the courts made rulings base on citations , those views would start to come closer together. Thus the actual enforcement would become based on a more definitive understanding throughout the jurisdictions .

So on one hand I understand fully when someone says ; that’s not the law , don’t call the police and ask because they don’t know .

The problem with that however is that those officers are the ones who are going to issue a ticket , for right or wrong , based on their understanding of the laws .
it’s the courts which will decide if those officers are correct or not .which in turn changes the officers understanding and thus the way the laws get enforced. Remember its not their job to define the laws . Its their job to enforce them .

that’s one of the problems we all face . There is just way to many laws .
While some may seem to be very clear in their wording , nothing sucks more then having a states attorney stand there and start quoting case after case were prior courts have interpreted the meaning differently even though we think its very clear .

So unless a person is willing to go though all the different steps of fighting and proving that their interpretation is correct , its much safer to call the local police and ask them as more then likely they are the one thats will write you the ticket . Thus starting the bigger ball rolling .

Now does that make it right , NO . IMO doing just that is whats gotten us into such a mess in this country and why the governments are aloud to continue to do what they do . Simply put , there isn’t enough folks anymore with the time and money to willingly stand up and fight to the point the laws become completely clear .

For what ever reason that’s what im gathering has not happened to any real deep level in your state . IE the word hasn’t gotten out about the way the laws actually is OR the law isn’t being applied in a broad enough scale as it was written or in the context as your understanding it . Be that understanding factual or not .

Which may very well be why these companies are simply saying they don’t sell to your state .
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Old June 17, 2013, 08:31 PM   #22
BirchOrr
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Wow... pretty interesting...

... stuff there Captchee, however I disagree with you. It's true... many times local law enforcement does not know the law. If I do know the law, there is no harm or foul. Go ahead and write me a ticket. It will be thrown out before it ever gets to court.

There are tons of laws here that have not been taken off the books. The responsibility falls on us to be compliant, even if the local boobs don't know what is current. The officers are not informed, or not kept current for a good reason. They write tickets. I do not consult local law enforcement or even the State Police on these issues. They don't know squat.

As mentioned above, I look at MCORGO. If it's not there, I ask a local FFL dealer. They ARE informed.

Back to the original question, if the firearms manufacturers don't know what's truly legal... from one state to another, it's their loss not mine.

Birch
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Old June 17, 2013, 09:03 PM   #23
Captchee
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if anything will get thrown out or not is a mater of speculation .
The question is it worth it to you if it doesn’t even if in the end you win .
You wont get your time , money back unless us sue .
Plus if the decide to make an example of you your trouble will have only began .
See you may say you know the law . But that’s not up to you , its up to the judge to accept your knowledge or not .

that’s all im saying . As I said I don’t disagree with what you folks believe is the law .
All I am saying is every one has the right to sell or not to sell . You have the right to buy or not to buy .
But in this day and age where the US supreme court can accept the wording and meaning of the 2nd amendment by 1 vote .
Just today basically say that we the people do not have the right ask for some type of proof of citizenship before you vote .
I don’t think I would be so bold as to bet on anything

PS , i dont think i would be laying my trust on just any FFL dealer eather . some know the laws , some dont . some dont even know anything about guns , they only have an FFL becouse their line of work dictates the have one .

but then are you sugesting that Traditions wont sell one of their guns to an FFL ?
that seems rather odd. they dont sell new guns to companies within your state ?
if they do , then go through that FFL and let him worry as to if he knows the laws or not .
frankly thats what i would do as i dont have time to fiddle around with an officer who is just doing his job.

Last edited by Captchee; June 17, 2013 at 09:13 PM.
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