The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 8, 2013, 06:34 AM   #1
GregInAtl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Gwinnett County Georgia
Posts: 746
Dipping

I had a friend of mine record a video of me shooting so I could find out what I am doing wrong. I noticed that every time I was way off on the target, I noticed that I was dipping (pushing downward) on the gun.

What can I do to make myself stop doing this.
__________________
"The worst place to have your happiness is in sombody else's head" -Lester Sumrall
GregInAtl is offline  
Old June 8, 2013, 06:54 AM   #2
oldandslow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2007
Posts: 557
greg, 6/8/13

An easy method to try and correct your flinch is to do a lot of dry firing at home. After making sure your pistol is unloaded slowly practice pulling the trigger while the sights are lined up on your target. They should be on target before, during and after the trigger breaks. Some folks even put a dime on the front of the slide and the dime should stay on the slide all the way through your trigger pull.

After you can do it slowly then pick up the speed a bit. Once it seems that the muscle memory has kicked in then go to the range and try it for real, starting slowly of course and without the dime. I'm sure others will chime in with some other good drills as well. Good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow
oldandslow is offline  
Old June 8, 2013, 07:09 AM   #3
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,108
Aw, heck, I though this post was about smokeless tobacco. (Dipping).

Okay, back on track. Pushing the handgun is a flinch. Like any other flinch, it can be 'unlearned" with a little time and practice. Slow down and concentrate on sight alignment through the trigger break. The sights should remain on target all the way through the shot. It takes concentration, but with practice becomes second nature.

The dime trick that Oldandslow talks about is a good training aid. Another training aid is to use a buddy to help you with your drill. If you've got a buddy filming you, he should be willing to help you with this drill.

With a semi-auto:

Stand facing the target, pistol holstered. Have your buddy standing behind you. Your buddy will unholster the firearm and load it, then return it to the holster. You draw and fire. Sometimes he loads it, sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes your hammer falls on an empty chamber. You won't know until the hammer falls.

With a revolver:

Stand facing the target, revolver holstered. Have buddy manipulate the handgun, placing between one and six cartridges in the cylinder, then return the revolver to the holster. You draw and fire, again concentrating on sight alignment, trigger manipulation, and follow-through. The sights should remain aligned on the target through the hammer-fall. You'll know immediately when it clicks on an empty chamber and the flinch will be readily apparent.

It's not just with handguns, but with any firearm. Flinching is a common malady with handguns, rifles, and shotguns. It happens. I've seen AA Trap shooters develop a flinch and work hard to correct it. Let the shot happen, concentrate on the basics and let the gun do what it is supposed to do. Sight alignment, trigger squeeze, follow through. Don't anticipate the shot, just let it happen.
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old June 8, 2013, 11:14 AM   #4
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 5,048
Good advice.
Or your friend could just smack you in the back of the head, real hard, every time you do that.
Just a thought.
But seriously, some precision, slow fire helps get rid of the heebie-jeebies.
Like as been said, focusing on only getting a perfect shot, no matter how long it takes, will help.
Then do two in a row, as quickly as can be done with accuracy.
Then three, and so on.
When you get to six like that, you will have succeeded.
Sooner or later, you will be victorious.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is offline  
Old June 8, 2013, 11:36 AM   #5
JerryM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,884
Very difficult to correct, but the advice so far is good. I find that if I shoot much over 100 rnds I start doing it again. I then practice the draw and dry fire for awhile.

I am not sure it can be corrected permanently for some of us, so we have to remain aware, and do a lot of dry firing.

It also helps to use a .22 conversion on the gun. I have a Ciener conversion unit and always take it to the range.

Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13 *¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 *For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
JerryM is offline  
Old June 9, 2013, 01:53 PM   #6
Erno86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 506
Dipping is a subconcious reaction to fighting recoil. Everbody dips once in awhile --- it all depends how much. The key is to relax you shoulders an breathe. Live fire sessions with a 22 rimfire, can also help alleviate the problem.
__________________
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

--- George Orwell
Erno86 is offline  
Old June 9, 2013, 06:45 PM   #7
Gaerek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 939
I don't think I've seen it mentioned yet, but the "Ball and Dummy" drill worked wonders for me.

Have someone fill your magazines for you, and make sure that at least 1 in 4 or 5 rounds is a dummy round (snap cap, etc). Whenever a dummy is loaded in the chamber and you pull the trigger, your natural flinch will be obvious. This way you can make a conscious effort to stop it.

In addition, it allows you to run some malfunction drills when you reach a dummy.
Gaerek is offline  
Old June 10, 2013, 02:03 PM   #8
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,658
This helps illustrate the importance of the surprise break.

The trigger press should be a smooth build up of pressure on the trigger (straight to the rear with only the trigger finger moving) until the shot breaks. If you do that you will not know exactly when the gun will fire and can not anticipate it firing.

While doing this, concentrate and focus on the front sight. That also helps avoid anticipating the gun going off.

Practice deliberately, making every shot count, to program good habits and muscle memory. Dry practice is very helpful. You just want to triple check that the gun is not loaded, and there should be no ammunition anywhere around. When engaging in dry practice, religiously follow Rule 2 - Never Let Your Muzzle Cover Anything You Are Not Willing To Destroy." As you dry fire, you want to reach the point where you can't see any movement of the sight as the sear releases and the hammer falls.

You'll want to be able to perform the fundamentals reflexively, on demand without conscious thought. You do that by practicing them slowly to develop smoothness. Then smooth becomes fast.

It may help to understand the way humans learn a physical skill.
  1. In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:

    1. unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;

    2. conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something even though we know in our mind how to do it;

    3. conscious competence, we know how to do something but can only do it right if we concentrate on doing it properly; and

    4. unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively (as second nature) on demand without having to think about it.

  2. To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. You need to start slow; one must walk before he can run. The key here is going slow so that you can perform each repetition properly and smoothly. Don't try to be fast. Try to be smooth. Now here's the kicker: slow is smooth and smooth is fast. You are trying to program your body to perform each of the components of the task properly and efficiently. As the programing takes, you get smoother; and as you get smoother you get more efficient and more sure, and therefore, faster.

  3. I have in fact seen this over and over, both in the classes I've been in and with students that I've helped train. Start slow, consciously doing the physical act smoothly. You start to get smooth, and as you get smooth your pace will start to pick up. And about now, you will have reached the stage of conscious competence. You can do something properly and well as long as you think about it.

  4. To go from conscious competence to the final stage, unconscious competence, is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back. You need to work at this to get good.

  5. If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence as far as trigger control is concerned, he will be able to consistently execute a proper, controlled trigger press quickly and without conscious thought. Of course one needs to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.

  6. Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old June 10, 2013, 02:08 PM   #9
ronz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2012
Location: milwaukee wi
Posts: 220
one other thing I have found that works is to have them load just 1 round and to loosen up there grip slightly and not to fight the recoil at all and to just let the gun go up naturally with the recoil
try that a few more times hopefully your hitting on target

the gun should naturally come back into position for the next shot
so wait untill after the recoil to line up for the next shoot
__________________
Please visit our site for shooting and reloading supplies
http://www.shootingandreloadingsupplies.com/
ronz is offline  
Old June 10, 2013, 08:24 PM   #10
Jammer Six
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2005
Location: Seattle
Posts: 827
Dummy rounds.
__________________
"Huh?" --Jammer Six, 1998
Jammer Six is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 01:19 PM   #11
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,321
1 Concentrate on sights.

2. Squeeze trigger.

Five words. Further advice not needed.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 02:04 PM   #12
Departed402
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2009
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 864
Jammer Six has the answer:

DUMMY ROUNDS

They will keep you honest. Mix them in with your live rounds when you go to the range. Make it so you don't know where they sit in your mags. Aside from showing your trigger pull mishaps they're good for malfunction drills too!
__________________
Slow is Smooth. Smooth is Fast.
Departed402 is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 02:21 PM   #13
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Departed402
...DUMMY ROUNDS

They will keep you honest. Mix them in with your live rounds when you go to the range...
Using dummy rounds will show you are jerking the trigger. They do not, however, show you how to correct the problem.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old June 11, 2013, 03:13 PM   #14
JerryM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,884
It is not simple. I know a guy who is a distinguished marksman. He was having trouble in his group of guys he shoots the pistol with. He even hired a hypnotist to cure him. It did not result in a long term cure for dipping. At some level of noise and recoil, even if it doesn't hurt, some of us do it, and I am pretty well convinced it is not completely curable over the long term when shooting 300 rounds a session.

I used to shoot skeet, and there were guys who said that recoil did not bother them. But when they got a misfire they almost jumped off the station. I could not resist saying, "For someone who recoil doesn't bother you sure have a big time flinch."

It is more mental than physical, and some of us are more inclined than others.

The best we can do is practice dry firing and when at the range use a .22 some.

Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13 *¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 *For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
JerryM is offline  
Old June 13, 2013, 01:49 AM   #15
MarkDozier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2010
Posts: 338
All this discussion and no one really answers the question.

Get a pistol Correction Chart. It will show you what you are doing and how to correct the the issue. (They make one for left and right handed shooting)
After you get the issue corrected the reread everything here becuase there are some good tips.
MarkDozier is offline  
Old June 13, 2013, 11:07 AM   #16
BigTex308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 259
real good advice so far!





Ike
BigTex308 is offline  
Old June 13, 2013, 12:18 PM   #17
Erno86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 506
I seem to have my major dips or flinches, when someone comes up behind me at the range and starts yapping {gunshots aside} to another person; while I'm concentrating on performing the shot. Shooting is alot like the mental game of golf --- that's why I like to listen to the tips from the color commentators of golf tournaments on T.V.--- inorder to help out my mental game in the shooting sports.

Our trap range has vocal talking restrictions during matches, but not down at our rifle or pistol ranges --- but it seems to be the proper protocol --- not to start yapping to another person, within earshot of another person who is about too execute a shot.
__________________
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

--- George Orwell

Last edited by Erno86; June 13, 2013 at 12:27 PM.
Erno86 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11524 seconds with 7 queries