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Old June 6, 2013, 08:06 AM   #1
vito
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Hard to understand the illogic of anti-gunners

At a corporate board meeting yesterday (I work for a large not-for-profit health care organization), the IL concealed carry law came up, and most of those present were really happy that the bill prohibits the carrying of a weapon in a hospital or related health care settings. Statements were made about how much safer our facilities will be with this prohibition in place. One board member then said, words to the effect of: why would you think that those who are likely to create mayhem will honor the law, while such a law surely will stop the law abiding from having a weapon to stop a criminal? This seemed to confound most of the board members. I then added a comment: our security staff is unarmed. Criminals will not follow the new law any more than they obey current laws. Banning guns from our facilities just ensures that the criminal will not have to worry about "a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun". I was looked at in a way that made clear that most present thought I was too crazy to even talk to.
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Old June 6, 2013, 08:27 AM   #2
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Some people have been brought up in a very sheltered environment... never been mugged, never had their house burglarized or their car stolen or broken into, never had contact with someone who wanted to do them harm or take advantage of them. They are what I call "Pollyannas":

(n.) Excessively or blindly optimistic people

(a.) Unreasonably or illogically optimistic
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Old June 6, 2013, 08:27 AM   #3
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I've come to the conclusion that antis don't speak or understand the logical or rational, only emotional. Something in their upbringing has conditioned them, like Pavlov's dog, to associate guns with bad instead of the evil hands and minds holding and controlling the gun.
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Old June 6, 2013, 08:55 AM   #4
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I know a number of people who, if you put a rattlesnake and a gun in front of them and said you would take one away, they would say, "Take the gun and leave the snake." They are ignorant (I mean that kindly - they really don't know) or brain washed. Most people have trouble putting risk in perspective.
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Old June 6, 2013, 09:20 AM   #5
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The board members are just playing stupid; they don't want to let on that they have thought this through. They really don't care if the hospital gets shot up as long as:
1) they personally don't get shot
2) they can blame somebody else

"It's not our fault, we clearly had a sign on each door prohibiting weapons"

A sign on the door is cheaper than trained armed guards. Allowing untrained ad hoc armed guards might expose them to a liability claim. Always follow the money.
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Old June 6, 2013, 10:28 AM   #6
Dashunde
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You cant understand a illogical position by using more logic.
They simply have their own reasons for sticking their heads in the sand.
Giving you the crazy look is a dismissive way to dodge a discussion they dont want to have.
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Old June 6, 2013, 10:53 AM   #7
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The distressing thing about it is, they are free to choose not to own or carry a gun, but they just made that choice for every person in the facility. Without even asking them.

They might think they are limiting their liability to a claim, but I think it just went up a great deal. There are armed guards at Walmart or the shopping mall, large offices, and in schools. For a facility to refuse to employ armed response in this day and age is foolish, and to me, criminal.
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Old June 6, 2013, 11:04 AM   #8
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Rather than devoting a thread to bashing people who "don't get it," how about talking about ways to reach them?

You might not be able to persuade the entire board to go to the range with you, but what about one or two of the ones you know better?

Gather some data on assaults in hospitals. Spend some time in the ER and talk to the cops who are in and out. I'd bet you'll find some who are there a lot, and who have opinions about this.

Think about how to talk to them without using lines like "...good guy with a gun... bad guy with a gun..." IMHO, when we're talking with intelligent people, this sort of thing just makes us sound like we're spouting a party line. Let's show them that we can think independently, without resorting to clichés.
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Old June 6, 2013, 02:57 PM   #9
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Here in Arizona, the hospitals are all posted as gun free zones by state law. Many medical offices have also used that law and posted as gun free zones. I have to wonder what it will take for them to finally get it?
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Old June 6, 2013, 03:10 PM   #10
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I always find it odd that a large medical establishmemt would fail to have (at minimum) armed security.

They have drugs with street value, large number of patients and visitors that are/may be mentally unstable, deal with people under highly stressful and emotional situations on a daily basis and probably even more reasons that are potential powderkegs. Locks and procedure are one thing, but discouragement isn't gonna stop someone deadset on doing something rotten.

I don't think I would like to work or visit such a place. My local hospital at least has armed security and the campus police usually maintain a presense in the building.
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Old June 6, 2013, 03:42 PM   #11
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There are hundreds of stories about armed civilians protecting inocent victoms. A gun has never gotten up and shot someone on its own. Only when a violent person gets a hold of it. And with all those valuable drugs in the hospital, an addict could conceivably use a gun to get at them. If I worked there, I would feel safer if I had a gun or knew there was an armed guard nearby.
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Old June 6, 2013, 04:04 PM   #12
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From my point of view there is no logic to such laws, only emotion.
Vanya, you make a very good point. We can't win them all but a few converts at a time is an excellent tactic. Then they will tell 2 friends and they will tell 2 friends .......
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Old June 6, 2013, 08:54 PM   #13
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its simple.. its not that they misunderstand. Its not that they actually believe their argument or their point. Its not that they are trying to protect or prevent any ills from happening. Its that they do not want people to have guns- period and will use whatever argument they feel will allow them to further that agenda. You win these kinds of things by reaching the fence sitters, not by any attempt to win over the antis.

Look at it like this: if you own a business and you have plan to one day- move your business across the street to a better location but find out that another fellow is planning to open a icecream shop in that exact place.. you don't run down to the city council and ask them not to license him because it derails your plans.. you say that they should not license him because icecream is bad and makes kids fat and causes diabetes. No matter how much the people who want the icecream shop try to convince you that icecream is not bad.. you insist that it is and then claim that it causes cancer and hair loss.
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Old June 6, 2013, 11:23 PM   #14
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One of my best friends was working through his masters degree at at night with a fellow student who is a cop. One night, the cop's sweater rode up a little and his off-duty weapon was exposed. Mind you, this was not an MP5 or S&W M29, but a compact auto. My buddy is not a gun guy, but he thinks it was a compact Glock.

Well this caused all sorts of consternation among the course instructor, the other students, and the department administration.

The cop, who is apparently the world's most patient guy, wrote a letter to the department head explaining that as a LEO, he was required to carry a weapon at all times and after much hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth, they reluctantly dropped the issue.

Unbelievable...
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Old June 6, 2013, 11:57 PM   #15
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It's a cultural thing to a large degree. There's also a wide range of opinions as to what should be illegal in the anti-gun community. Most of the gun control people I know focus their attention on the ease to which bad guys can get guns.

My response is that I don't know what type of "gun control" would prevent such a thing. If someone could come up with a control that would prevent bad guys from getting guns and still recognize law abiding citizens' rights, I'd support it in a minute. When someone starts shooting other folks and they don't get tired or run out of ammo then someone has to stop them. An armed good guy is the best way to do that.
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Old June 7, 2013, 12:53 AM   #16
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Quote:
"It's not our fault, we clearly had a sign on each door prohibiting weapons"
Haha do they work for Taggart Transcontinental or something?
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Old June 7, 2013, 06:04 AM   #17
twins
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Quote:
Banning guns from our facilities just ensures that the criminal will not have to worry about "a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun". I was looked at in a way that made clear that most present thought I was too crazy to even talk to.
You're crazy for lip-synching NRA's motto at a board meeting. Why not push for armed security instead of pushing your personal agenda?

Lets imagine a bad guy (or group) comes in and start shooting, how many people do you want to start drawing their gun? If you had your weapon present, are you 100% sure you would start shooting at the "right" bad guy? And if the "wrong" person was shot by you or another "good" person, who's liable?

As a board member, you should put the organization in front of your personal agenda. Plus your local law doesn't allow it so change it or look for alternative (ie, armed security).

The ill-logic of pro-gunners-at-all-cost, that's more disturbing to me.
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Old June 7, 2013, 07:55 AM   #18
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Quote:
Lets imagine a bad guy (or group) comes in and start shooting, how many people do you want to start drawing their gun? If you had your weapon present, are you 100% sure you would start shooting at the "right" bad guy? And if the "wrong" person was shot by you or another "good" person, who's liable?
You're being facetious, right?
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Old June 7, 2013, 08:24 AM   #19
Vanya
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Note to all... let's not get personal.
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Old June 7, 2013, 08:59 AM   #20
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The thing to remember is this: these policies are generally driven by fears of liability. The lawyers have already told the board of directors that allowing civilians to carry is a recipe for disaster. That's what you're working against.

This is very similar to the campaign to ban guns in the workplace in the 1980's.
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Old June 7, 2013, 10:43 AM   #21
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I think someone was right about Pollyannas.
I think also it isn't logic, ration, or reason. It's emotion.
And most importantly, an inability to appropriately assess the risk. Like the snake and the gun example.
Like cars and airplanes. People drive cars like maniacs. And have no fear about it.
Yet they are apprehensive on an airplane.
And last year 25,500 people were killed in vehicles, and probably no more than 100 in the entire world were killed in air crashes.
So where is the risk?
dc
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Old June 7, 2013, 01:30 PM   #22
Dr Big Bird PhD
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Quote:
I think someone was right about Pollyannas.
I think also it isn't logic, ration, or reason. It's emotion.
And most importantly, an inability to appropriately assess the risk. Like the snake and the gun example.
Like cars and airplanes. People drive cars like maniacs. And have no fear about it.
Yet they are apprehensive on an airplane.
And last year 25,500 people were killed in vehicles, and probably no more than 100 in the entire world were killed in air crashes.
So where is the risk?
dc
Not to be off topic, but the fears associated with flying tend to also hinge on a general fear of heights, little to no control over outcome, and the "impending doom" feeling one would get falling out of the sky.
Cars give us a feeling of control and leave us on the ground. It's inherently more natural for us to feel safer in this situation (regardless of the statistical probability of death).

Getting back to firearms, that same rationale could be applied to guns vs. knives. A knife is a more personal, up-close weapon that leaves people feeling "more in control." Even if you are un-armed facing an attacked with one.
A firearm simulates the feeling of "impending doom," and the illusion of instantaneous peril and death adds to the irrational fear of them.

I personally feel like all anti-gunners are western society's Aztecs. Calling guns "boomsticks" and thinking that they are inherently evil because they dont understand them and people magically die.

It's all rather infantile.
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Old June 7, 2013, 02:43 PM   #23
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Hard to understand the illogic of anti-gunners

Most anti-gunners I have run into have one or several of these traits 1) fear all guns 2)Led a sheltered life, and don't think anything bad will happen to them so a gun is not necessary 3) are protected by armed guards so no one else should have a gun 4) feel that gun crime can be legislated away 5) want to take the choice of "having a gun or not" away from everyone else. 6)feel, if we just make a few more anti-gun laws the criminals will stop shooting people and if that doesn't work, pass more and more gun laws! 7) want to control everyone and decide who has certain rights and who doesn't! 8) feel they are superior and know what is good for everyone else. The only way their thinking might change is if they become a VICTIM of a mugging, home invasion, robbery or in a situation where they suddenly realize they are vulnerable, unprotected and afraid for their life! After one or more times being in this situation, rethinking the stance against gun ownership and training sometimes can happen. Good luck trying to convince an anti-gunner without this "type" of experience!
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Old June 7, 2013, 04:55 PM   #24
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Some of the opposition is understandable to me anyway. I was raised around guns. I've had a gun of my own since I was 7 or 8. The first was 410 shotgun but I shot a 20 gauge of my dad's before that. I'm in my early 60s and I've had at least two pistols, two shotguns, and a rifle since I was in my early 20s.

My dad, his friends, my friends, members of our family all had guns. Everyone I knew had at least a shotgun but most had rifles as well. Few had pistols. My dad had a 22 pistol that I still shoot today. Nevertheless, none of these people that I knew ever owned a gun (or desired to own one as far as I know) that possessed the firepower as some of the guns today. Nor did they carry a gun either openly or concealed. Nor did I ever hear complaints about violations 2nd amendment rights cause they couldn't do these things.

The world has changed alot since the 50s, 60s, and 70s and gun control issues are a part of the adjustment to the change. Not all the anti-gun people are after our guns and against concealed carry. Personally, the few I know largely target high capacity mags and insufficient background checks on private sales. I know there are others that would like to go much further, but the "anti-gun" crowd I know pretty much all own guns and don't have what I would call a irrational or illogical position toward them.

I'd support the position on high capacity mags and definitely support better background checks on private sales but I don't know how to do these things in a way that prevents the bad guys from obtaining guns. There's tons of high capacity mags out there already and I see no way to police the background checks on private sales. Such laws would make lawbreakers out of some otherwise law abiding people and still not prevent the bad guys from obtaining guns.
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Old June 7, 2013, 05:23 PM   #25
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Lets imagine a bad guy (or group) comes in and start shooting, how many people do you want to start drawing their gun? If you had your weapon present, are you 100% sure you would start shooting at the "right" bad guy? And if the "wrong" person was shot by you or another "good" person, who's liable?
Its amazing that 10,000 men have stood in a field wielding sword and shield against one another and can keep up with who the bad guys are. Surely 25 people in an office can do the same or as least as well as those you would call for help (who are complete strangers).
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