The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 3, 2013, 09:26 AM   #1
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,742
Just trying to help....

I frequently browse Armslist for gun stuff in my state, and I ran across a "private sale" listing where the seller had two revolvers for sale, but lived in another state and comes to Virginia every week or so. I replied to his ad and told him that it might be illegal to do a private sale of handguns in Virginia, in case he didn't know he could be committing a felony. Really, I was only trying to keep him from trouble. He replied that he is a dealer. I replied that he would have to do NICs check then, and that might annoy those interested in a private sale, as was advertised. Boy did he then proceed to rip into me, name calling and such. He had other guns for sale in his home state, and they were listed as dealer sales. So, should I have just kept my mouth shut?
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old June 3, 2013, 10:00 AM   #2
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 5,009
You must have just noticed that the internet has no shortage of arrogant and rude people.
And less than well informed.
Those attributes seem to be directly associated.
Just ignore it and carry on.
The next guy might actually appreciate it.
Or even elaborate on the subject to benefit us all.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is offline  
Old June 3, 2013, 10:44 AM   #3
Armorer-at-Law
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 2002
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 368
Quote:
He replied that he is a dealer. I replied that he would have to do NICs check then, and that might annoy those interested in a private sale, as was advertised.
You are both wrong. He cannot sell a handgun across state lines as a private sale. Even as a dealer (FFL), it would have to be transferred through a VA FFL. The out of state dealer doing a NICS check does not make the interstate sale of a handgun legal.
__________________
Send lawyers, guns, and money...
Armorer-at-Law.com
07FFL/02SOT
Armorer-at-Law is offline  
Old June 3, 2013, 10:53 AM   #4
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,742
True that. He would have to go through a Virginia FFL to sell it so a Virginia citizen. Since he makes frequent trips to Virginia, my assumption was that he has a partner/associate here in Virginia that can do the NICS and transfer. None the less, it's not a private sale. Anyway, his response to me was that he knows his business and has checked the laws, and suggested I do the same (in so many words, sans the names calling).
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old June 3, 2013, 11:17 AM   #5
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,840
It might be worth it to report him to Armslist and let them figure it out. They may decide that he's kosher and do nothing -- or you may stop someone from criminal activity, dealer or not.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old June 3, 2013, 11:39 AM   #6
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,742
Yeah I thought of that too. Problem is that Armslist is mostly "hands off". They do post the ATF 800 number for reporting crime though. Figured I'd call that tonight if it's still listed this evening. Problem is, no crime has been committed unless he sells a gun here.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old June 3, 2013, 12:50 PM   #7
DaleA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 1,511
The facts: The seller is a dealer and is NOT in Virginia but is offering to sell guns to folks that live in Virginia.

Just curious, would the buyer of one of his guns in Virginia face legal problems too?
DaleA is offline  
Old June 3, 2013, 01:11 PM   #8
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,742
Dale I think the buyer could be in trouble if doing a private purchase from someone that he/she knows is not permitted to do a private sale in Virginia, and in this case, the seller openly admits he is not a Virginia resident. I think this dealer is just doing a bait and switch act. Private sale vs. must go through a Virginia FFL, or, is selling here illegally. Another possibility is that this is the Feds and they are setting up some sort of sting operation (out comes the tinfoil hat).
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old June 3, 2013, 03:30 PM   #9
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Could also be a MAIG sting.
MLeake is offline  
Old June 3, 2013, 07:34 PM   #10
2ndsojourn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 15, 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 619
IANAL nor an FFL, but if he is selling as a dealer he must record the transaction in his book and I think selling to you would would be illegal so maybe he's one of those unscrupulous guys we'll be seeing on 60 minutes.

If he's willing to sell to you as a private seller he's again trying to skirt the law unless, like stated above, he has a FFL connection in your state. If not, you're best to stay away.
2ndsojourn is offline  
Old June 3, 2013, 09:19 PM   #11
Mr. James
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: The Old Dominion
Posts: 1,521
Thank you, Armorer,

Even a class 01 FFL in one state cannot sell a handgun directly to a resident of another state, NICS or no. Otherwise, those poor sods in Maryland would besiege Virginia gun shows.

The facts stated, and the guys reaction, stink to the heavens. This guy is either a criminal or an MAIG stooge.
__________________
"...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li

"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat
Mr. James is offline  
Old June 4, 2013, 08:43 AM   #12
Armorer-at-Law
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 2002
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 368
Quote:
This guy is either a criminal or an MAIG stooge.
Or even just an ordinary stooge. You'd be surprised how many FFLs don't know parts of the law.
__________________
Send lawyers, guns, and money...
Armorer-at-Law.com
07FFL/02SOT
Armorer-at-Law is offline  
Old June 4, 2013, 11:30 AM   #13
Nickel Plated
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NYC
Posts: 529
I personally wouldn't bother reporting him. I do not agree with or support these lawa, as such see no reason why I should help enforce them. By all means steer clear of the situation to keep yourself out of trouble, but if the feds want to enact these stupid laws, it falls on their shoulders to enforce them. I have no intention of being their rat.

And if the guy is not willing to take some friendly advice or atleast be curteous about it. Let him dig his own grave so to speak.
Nickel Plated is offline  
Old June 4, 2013, 12:24 PM   #14
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
Quote:
The facts: The seller is a dealer and is NOT in Virginia but is offering to sell guns to folks that live in Virginia.
And that is perfectly legal IF, as stated above, the transfer goes through a VA dealer.
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old June 4, 2013, 07:11 PM   #15
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,742
Quote:
And that is perfectly legal IF, as stated above, the transfer goes through a VA dealer.
Correct, but he advertises a "private sale", which by definition would not require a transfer by a Virginia FFL.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old June 4, 2013, 08:12 PM   #16
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,840
Exactly.

Since he's a resident of another state, it's illegal for him to do a private sale to a Virginia resident. It makes no difference that he's a dealer himself; the sale would be legal only if it goes through a VA FFL. If he's proposing a sale to take place in a state where he's not a resident, without benefit of a local FFL, the technical term for such a sale would be "felony."
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old June 5, 2013, 07:22 AM   #17
wayneinFL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 18, 2004
Posts: 1,934
Quote:
Since he makes frequent trips to Virginia, my assumption was that he has a partner/associate here in Virginia that can do the NICS and transfer. None the less, it's not a private sale.
It's still a private sale if it's not going through his books. It's just a private sale that has to go through a FFL. Some sellers in FL will require that their private sale in state has to go through a FFL. It's still a private sale, because the transaction is still conducted between two private parties.
wayneinFL is offline  
Old June 5, 2013, 07:56 AM   #18
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,762
All he has to do is ship it to an FFL in your state. If he's a dealer (which I doubt) this is par for the course. You pay shipping and your FFL's fees.
Skans is offline  
Old June 5, 2013, 11:14 AM   #19
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,742
Quote:
If he's proposing a sale to take place in a state where he's not a resident, without benefit of a local FFL, the technical term for such a sale would be "felony."
Yep, that's what I told him, and he proceeded to chew me a new orifice.

Quote:
All he has to do is ship it to an FFL in your state. If he's a dealer (which I doubt) this is par for the course. You pay shipping and your FFL's fees.
Skans he says in his listing that he comes to my state once a week. Sure he can still go through a VA FFL to transfer, but that's not a private sale. I believe he is (or works for) a dealer in another state as there are other armslist listings by him in that state, and they are listed as Dealer sales.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old June 5, 2013, 11:57 AM   #20
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,762
You did the right thing. I don't even see why he'd take the risk of doing something like what he is proposing. If the guy has an FFL and does a lot of business in your state, he would surely know an FFL that might even handle the paperwork for just the $5 NICS fee, or at least at a reduced price.

For all you know, the gun could be stolen and he's looking to dump it off on someone. Maybe not, but FFL's and people working for FFL's typically don't mess around with this stuff - it's not like he's even saving any money!
Skans is offline  
Old June 5, 2013, 12:03 PM   #21
noelf2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 1,742
Quote:
It's still a private sale if it's not going through his books. It's just a private sale that has to go through a FFL. Some sellers in FL will require that their private sale in state has to go through a FFL. It's still a private sale, because the transaction is still conducted between two private parties.
Wayne, the same can happen here in Virginia. A private seller can insist on going through an FFL in his/her state to transfer a gun to a private buyer in his/her state. They tend to make that clear in the conditions of the sale right up front. I would still consider that a private sale too. However, you have to account for some variations here. For one, the seller/dealer is not in my state, so his transaction would not be considered a "private sale" in my state because we are not both private citizens of Virginia. Also, he didn't say he requires an FFL transfer in his private sale listing. I don't see any legal loopholes that work in his favor here.
__________________
Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.
noelf2 is offline  
Old June 8, 2013, 09:55 PM   #22
Andrewsmith1
Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2011
Posts: 29
My advise is to stay out of his business unless you are buying. If your are buying make him ship it to an FFL to protect yourself. I am not a lawyer and as a result, I do not give out legal advise. It could come back to bite me if I gave out the wrong information. There are times when the opportunity to provide helpful information presents itself (someone new to guns asking for basic information). There are far more times when I prefer to stay away from the situation so I don't end up getting drug into any legal matters that may occur in the situation.
Andrewsmith1 is offline  
Old June 8, 2013, 11:59 PM   #23
SgtLumpy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
Perhaps related, or not...

Is it legal for me, an AZ resident, to drive to TX or NM or some other state and purchase a firearm there from a pvt party? From a FFL dealer?


Sgt Lumpy
SgtLumpy is offline  
Old June 9, 2013, 12:57 AM   #24
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,840
Short answer, no, if you mean "buy it and take it home with you." If someone transfers a gun to a resident of another state, the transaction must go through a licensed firearms dealer in the buyer's home state. You could drive to another state and buy a gun, but it would then have to be shipped to an FFL in Arizona before you could legally take possession of it.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old June 9, 2013, 02:54 AM   #25
Ignition Override
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2008
Posts: 1,773
What if you had bought a gun from him at a gun Show in your state, and the transaction was described as "a personal sale"?

It might not be legal to allow a personal sale when a guy is already an FFL, or do most southern states distinguish between:
A) a personal sale by an FFL at a Gun Show, and-
B) a sale by the same guy, which is characterized as "on the business side" at a Gun Show?

Last edited by Ignition Override; June 9, 2013 at 03:00 AM.
Ignition Override is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12464 seconds with 7 queries