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View Poll Results: Would you like to see a split B/P deer season? (inline separate from Traditionalist)
Yes 23 51.11%
No 22 48.89%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 2, 2013, 06:38 AM   #1
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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Would it work for you if you had too?

I know my area during B/P deer season is aflood with inline usage. Its a good thing as those inline hunters move the deer around for everyone. There are no draw backs as of yet. All of us no matter what we carry through the woods now for the time being have to use open barrel sights in this State. But if scopes were allowed? I really wouldn't like to see that happen. But I've given thought to whether or not I would like to hunt along side those scope shooters:

How would you feel about your State offering two separate B/P deer seasons. One for inline and another for them traditional toters.

1. What guidance would you offer to see that its done right and fair? (Rules, dates, stipulations you know those kind of things/issues.)

2. Or perhaps your State already has those split seasons. Please tell us how its been working-out if you would? (rules, fairness to all or not?)

3. I've included a poll for this write. Just for those who would rather not comment of haven't the time to do so. But still wanting others know how they feel about a split B/P deer season.

S/S
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Old June 2, 2013, 08:42 AM   #2
Captchee
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Well I cast my vote as No .
Now please let me clarify that .
First let me say that im a traditionalist . Not as strict as some but it would seem , stricter then others .
But here is why I voted No .
Here in Idaho we currently have a general muzzle loading season .
Our season doesn’t open state wide like the general season or archery season is . Basically there are areas where the state provides muzzle loading , ONLY hunts . What is aloud in those hunts is defined and spelled out.
IE Muzzleloader , then whats legal to use as a muzzleloader. in other words just because it loads from the muzzle , doesn’t make it legal .

Now . Lets say a person wants to use a scoped inline , smokeless powder , modern jacketed bullets ……. Basically anything and everything that would make their gun as effective as possible.. Well they can do that to in our general season .
The reason for that is that our general big game season is defined as a ,General Any weapon season . So a person can use basic a rock if they wanted to .

Sometimes I read folks say they just want more time in the field .
Well that maybe be the case , but it doesn’t really work that way here .
Our opportunities are available near year around . But for a short amount of time , a person can normally find some season open to hunt in. So if a person is really wanting to have a lot of time in the field , they can actually do that. But there is one little snag .
For the most part unless your hunting in a double bag limit area OR a depredation type hunt , once you fill your tag for that species , your done for the year .
IE , lets say I fill my elk tag the first part of August, using an LOP tag . That means im not hunting elk in any other season , the rest of the year unless it’s a depredation or multiple bag limit hunt area.

So what im getting at is for the largest % of the time , I can use what ever I want and I do . IE I use my flintlocks for everything .
So frankly I see no need to have different definitions here .

Now not to long ago we did just that in that we had areas designated general muzzle loading and other areas designated traditional ONLY .
In other words in the general muzzle loading season Inlines were aloud under a specific set of guidelines . Traditional muzzleloaders were also aloud in those areas “IF” they met the same guidelines . But in the traditional area hunts , the guidelines did not allow Inline ignitions , no mater if they were a traditional design or not

So I think possibly your question is going to need to be more about how your specific state provides opportunities. The situations here in the West are often completely different then those in the east
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Old June 2, 2013, 09:24 AM   #3
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Wisconsin seasons are complicated enough without another layer of yes you can no you can't days added. One reason I stopped trout fishing. Every single stream in Wisconsin was a mish mash of regulations different from the next stream over. I don't feel like making the regulation authors happy in order to make life even more complicated.
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Old June 2, 2013, 10:48 AM   #4
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Too what end?? .... NO

For Midwestern states, I really see no reason or purpose. What other states might need or want, is a different story. Even though our hunting grounds, is mostly rural and agricultural, we still have plenty of good deer country to hunt and most very seldom do I run into another hunter during our early and late seasons. We also have options to use other weapons during these seasons. If I ever ran into another traditional hunter out in the woods, we probably waist more time BS-ing about our SideLocks. ....

Now, there are times, mostly during the early season, that I hunt Traditional; Garb and all. Then there are others times I hunt In-Lines. .....

Hunt and;
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Old June 2, 2013, 11:02 AM   #5
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I never was an advocate for special seasons. If it's deer season, hunt deer with whatever you want, bows, modern guns, or primitive guns.
What next? Separate seasons for compound and recurved bows?

I believe that ml only deer seasons is what has ruined muzzleloading today, you can't hardly buy a traditional Kentucky rifle anymore at Cabelas but they have all kinds of inlines and sabots and fake black powder pellets for sale.
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Old June 2, 2013, 01:02 PM   #6
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What's the point of a muzzleloader season if you are going to use a modern whiz bang reproduction of a scoped rifle using modern bullets and smokeless components? I am all for a seperate season for traditional muzzleloaders that could even run concurrent with bow season. If we are to resort to modern inlines, we might as well just have two regular seasons. The spirit of the game should include sidelocks and traditional muzzleloaders....in a true primitive hunt.
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Old June 2, 2013, 01:46 PM   #7
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Some states have primative seasons; I make my own.

Quote:
I am all for a seperate season for traditional muzzleloaders that could even run concurrent with bow season.
Once again, we are infringing on another man's season. I started hunting deer as a bow hunter and still have many friends that would not be receptive to sharing a "their" season with any M/L's. .....

There is plenty of opportunity and space for me to turn any season, into "MY" primitive hunt. My .36 Seneca during squirrel season and .50 Lyman or TC-Hawken during both deer seasons. .....

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Old June 2, 2013, 02:51 PM   #8
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Most of y'all know I despise inlines. I said no because I wouldn't want to lose any of my season. However here inlines are pretty much a thing of the past as our laws allow single shot breech loaders with smokeless. Next year on private property you will be able to use your regular deer rifle. What's the world coming to?
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Old June 2, 2013, 03:12 PM   #9
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I'm pretty much a "tradionlist" so maybe I shouldn't say anything . . . .

When ML deer seasons were started, in general, it was to give an extra season for those who wanted to hunt with muzzleloaders - i.e. round ball, flint/percussion, open iron sights - traditional rifles. When this occurred, I viewed it as a chance for those who enjoyed muzzleloading to try their skills - the same skills our ancestors utilized with muzzleloaders - to hunt.

Then . . . the opportunity was seen whereby a person could get extra hunting time if they used a muzzleloader and shazam . . . gun mfgs. saw a marketing opportunity to develop new styles of rifles to allow that . . . ones that technically were "muzzleloaders" but in fact, resembled more modern rifles. To each their own and if someone likes the high tech inlines and wants to hunt with one with a scope . . . more power to 'em. Powder pellets, rifle primers, saboted bullets . . . sorry, but I don't view them as "traditional" or in the spirit of what the muzzleloading seasons were originally set up for.

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that if the inlines were only allowed during regular season, not that many would have 'em. They'd stick to their shotguns or center fire rifles. And as far as I'm concerned, expense of a "traditional" ML over an "inline" isn't a factor. There are far too many used and cheaper (CVAs, etc.) out there that are on the traditional lines (say Hawken styles) that in the long run, cost no more to buy (both rifle and shooting components). But, those types of traditional rifles don't resemble the modern guns that most hunters are comfortable using. It's just a way of getting extra hunting time.

Should there be separate seasons for "traditional" and "inlines"? Personally, I don't see why. For those of us who are "traditional" . . we probably aren't going to change from that. If someone else isn't "traditional" and the laws of the state consider scoped inlines that load from the front as "muzzleloaders" . . then let them hunt with them. As long as common courtesy and safety exists between hunters, then I could care less what the guy in the woodlot next to me gets his deer with . . . for myself, it would be the personal satisfaction that goes with doing it the same way as my ancestors did and finding that I had the skills to do it. Why separate seasons and make it difficult for everyone and a bunch more "rules". There's room enough for everyone for both styles of hunting at the same time. To me, it's not about the difference between traditional rifles and inlines, scopes, etc. . . . it's about getting out and enjoying the woods and nature around you . . . and to be honest . . . I can say that I've done a lot of deer hunting . . . taken a lot of naps out in the woods and I've never shot a deer in my entire lifetime of 60 years . . . but I enjoy the "hunt".
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Old June 2, 2013, 05:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Once again, we are infringing on another man's season. I started hunting deer as a bow hunter and still have many friends that would not be receptive to sharing a "their" season with any M/L's. .....
passably . But I have heard such suggestions more then a few times from archers , both traditional and compound shooters . But then at the same time archers are finding themselves in the same boat as technologies increase with compound bows . not to mention the push to allow cross bows .
I to used to do alot of archery hunting with compounds .
myself i would suport such a move "IF" the season was truly primitve in definition . IE. RB , BP , open sights , flintlock or match lock only .
even better if it said smoothbore
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Old June 2, 2013, 05:05 PM   #11
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If you do have a "traditional" muzzleloader season, where do you draw the line. A TC Hawkin is only superficially traditional, coil springs in the lock etc. What about a traditional style rifle with a saboted bullet rifling twist or a traditional rifle with a scope on it?
The people who have a clone of an actual historic rifle will look down their noses at people who use mass produced traditional style muzzleloaders that are not really replicas of any historic rifle.

Conversly, what about an inline that is designed for #11 percussion caps and has a barrel designed for patched roundballs and uses iron sights?
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Old June 2, 2013, 05:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
If you do have a "traditional" muzzleloader season, where do you draw the line. A TC Hawkin is only superficially traditional, coil springs in the lock etc. What about a traditional style rifle with a saboted bullet rifling twist or a traditional rifle with a scope on it?
The people who have a clone of an actual historic rifle will look down their noses at people who use mass produced traditional style muzzleloaders that are not really replicas of any historic rifle.

Conversly, what about an inline that is designed for #11 percussion caps and has a barrel designed for patched roundballs and uses iron sights?
I'm sure some with historical rifles would look down their noses at modern day Hawkens etc. I have a fairly decent rendition of an original Hawken but I don't have a problem with those types of modern rifles. I see them as a fairly decent rendition of a Tryon trade rifle. A traditional rifle with a modern scope is tantamount to sacrilege.
An inline is an inline and an abomination no matter what it shoots.
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Old June 2, 2013, 06:52 PM   #13
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To each his own !!

Quote:
A TC Hawkin is only superficially traditional, coil springs in the lock etc.
Perhaps but still "In the Spirit" much like the Lyman's, Traditions and CVA's which are all made in Europe. "All" are technically; Non Replicas .....

Quote:
An inline is an inline and an abomination no matter what it shoots
To what, as they have never claimed a place in history or our hearts. Nor do in-liners give a rats a$$, what we think of them. .....

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Old June 2, 2013, 07:27 PM   #14
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I'd be happy if in-lines were put in with regular rifle season. Looking back at their reason for being and evolution, I think they have far surpassed the original intent of "primitive" weapons seasons.
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Old June 2, 2013, 07:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Nor do in-liners give a rats a$$, what we think of them. .....
Nor do I give a dead rats ass what they think of me.
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Old June 2, 2013, 08:08 PM   #16
Captchee
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Quote:
A TC Hawkin is only superficially traditional, coil springs in the lock etc. What about a traditional style rifle
ok , i have to ask . what about the use of a coil spring makes the rifle not traditional ?
Did coil springs not exist, were they not used in firearms of the period ?
They were you know . Maybe not the lock design that TC uses but still found in period locks .
The whole TC and Lyman issue is , IMO not an issue . After all , if so and we want to complain about a spring , why not complain about cast locks used even on high end traditional muzzleloaders . How about modern barrel steels , CC trigger and lock parts ……

Quote:
Conversly, what about an inline that is designed for #11 percussion caps and has a barrel designed for patched roundballs and uses iron sights?
Today 04:02 PM
that would depend on the actual ignition design . Myself , I cant see that as an issue
inline plunger ignitions in flintlock date to the early part of the 18th century . I personally wouldn’t want to shoot one , but ha , the option is most certainly there if you would like to ware a face shield all day while hunting .
percussion plunger and even bolt ignitions date to the mid 18th century .
possibly even the base for the needle ignition system .

how about something like the Nock box lock design .
OHH wait i forgot Hall used that design on their rifle . which by the way out produce the Hawkens rifles by 10s of thousands

something to think about
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Old June 2, 2013, 10:04 PM   #17
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I think this whole inline nonsense started as a result of special ml only seasons. Back when muzzle loading enthusiasts just had to hunt in the general season, people shot muzzleloaders because they were interested in the history of firearms and wanted to relive that history.

Then the special ml seasons started and the muzzle loader became a means to an end for people who wanted an extra deer season.
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Old June 2, 2013, 11:26 PM   #18
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Everything I use relative to ML hunting IS traditional. A pair of Ithaca Hawkins, a Pedersoli double plus a flint longrifle. I feel not in the least hampered nor outperformed by the inline crowd.

Most certainly they enjoy no real advantage relative to range....if ANY....certainly none relative to power and insofar as reliability goes, I LEARNED how to properly load my stuff and it all works. I have never had a failure to fire with either my flint gun or any of the caplocks while hunting.

Frankly, most of the inline crowd I've seen, in the field and at the range, are BARELY competent and I have yet to meet one that I couldn't outshoot.

Hell, I remember one friends kid that'd bought a stainless inline that was bitching about the fact that it would rust!!!!

Gotta make you wonder just how involved those folks are.

On the plus side, their participation does keep the seasons and the focus of our various game commissions at attention and any numerative advantage we get due the numbers of folks involved in the sport surely cannot harm us
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Old June 3, 2013, 05:37 AM   #19
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All inline shooters. A mile down the road from me hunting are a large family of farming folks 15-16 that hunt and do indeed complement the sport. Good hunters that work the woods hard to get their deer. A mile up the road is a gaggle of idiots. Just squatters. 12 to 20 grown men that do everything in their power to disappoint the entire neighborhood year after year. Those idiots all come from other towns and could care less how they behave in and out of the woods.. If I add up the good things about both neighbors and subtract the bad things the idiots do to perpetuate disappointment year after year. It's a wash. So I figure I'm better off without either group of inline hunters being around when its my time to hunt. The way I see it. Bow hunters of this State are given 3-1/2 months to get their deer with the smallest amount of participants. Those fellows can afford to give up two weeks of their overly extended deer season to another group of up-start hunters. Our politicians got to get their act together. They've managed to cram all of Minnesota's firearm hunting seasons into less than a 6 week period. Rifle shotgun & B/P. With B/P being the very last season of them all to take place. We Minnesotan B/P hunters up here need a split in the two groups of hunters. Or let either the inline or the traditionalists at the very least hunt over in Wisconsin or down in Iowa on one license only. What say you Pahoo & Old Grump about that new idea of mine? We B/P Brotheren in neighboring States should help each other out when ever possible don't yaw think_.

S/S
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Old June 3, 2013, 06:36 AM   #20
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Quote:
percussion plunger and even bolt ignitions date to the mid 18th century .
sorry miss print , i meant to say mid 19th century .

Sorry this post will be alittle long .

Good post Dog Runner .
Reliability and range wise . I would agree . But then were talking experienced traditional shooter against the average modern shooter . That experience and knowledge is IMO what can make the traditional styled rifle far more effective and reliable then the modern designs . But then on the other hand , there isn’t a lot of traditional shooters who use rifles that are capable of being effective at ranges those longer ranges Or for that mater attempt to take game at those ranges . So its kind of a trade off .

My experience with modern shooters is a little different . A few of the ones I know , are e very good shooters . Especially when shooting from a bench rest . Off hand , well that’s another story . But those with scopes often do very well when shooting off hand .
But then I wouldn’t say I really know all that many . Basically maybe 6-10
Of those who I consider good shooters , they mostly are people who have the money to shoot a lot …. I had a person bring in a Knight , just last week . He was wanting me to take it in on trade for part of the cost of a custom rifle .
As a rule I don’t even consider taking modern muzzleloaders on trade . For the most part I find them to be very hard to get any reasonable money out of .
But I actual considered this one as it was hardly used . When I ask why he hadn’t shot the rifle much , his comment was that at a 1.50-200 a round , it cost more to shoot then his center fires.
After some talking I came to the conclusion , that he really didn’t have the time or inclination to work out loads that would reduce the cost .
In the end I turned it down .

Myself I also don’t think the special season really has anything to do with it .
My father was one of the IDF&G biologists that help start the special muzzle loading seasons here in Idaho back in the 70’s .
Back then there was a lot of support do to the popularity of the 200 year centennial.
Back then there were many reasons for supporting a separate season. Basically overall it was for the very same reasons that archery has their own season . By the mid to late 1980’s that popularity was falling away . Until that time the inline ignition rifles were not aloud in our muzzle loading hunts . Frankly there wasn’t any real push to allow them .

I the later half of the 80’s those of us that worked close with our state game commission we started to hear rumblings of reductions in Muzzle loading, specific opportunities, which frankly were very limited anyway .
So we began to accept the idea of relaxing the rules to allow more modern designs .
I was part of that . To be frank , with hind sight being 20/20 , I have grown to regret that support

Myself , my issue with the modern inline , isn’t really the ignition or the looks of the rifle.
Its more the push to allow more and more technologies. It just never seems to stop.
As soon as you compromise, in a couple years your ask to compromise again .
Supposedly to try and get more folks involved and thus increase opportunity and revenue . But the reality of it is that it doesn’t work that way .At least not with the way our seasons are set up or the way our funding works here in this state .

it’s a very hard and complicated road to hoe .
But this much I have concluded .
The fastest way IMO to get rid of the majority of modern inline hunters , is going to be to do away completely with the traditional muzzle loading seasons all together .
That doesn’t mean losing the traditional only opportunity .
OHHH no . what some of us have found is that with a little support and help , some of the larger ranches around here are more then willing to provide that same opportunity .

So at least for me , those are the places I hunt or I hunt with my flintlock in the General any weapons season . I have not actually hunted in a designated muzzle loading only hunt for years .
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Old June 3, 2013, 10:37 AM   #21
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Still in the Spirit ???

Quote:
Looking back at their reason for being and evolution, I think they have far surpassed the original intent of "primitive" weapons seasons.
That was not their intent. In the evolution of firearms, there is no rightful place for an in-line. It's hard to make the cut but the requirement of a 209, is a no-brainer. Back in the early 80's, I had a chance to discuss some of these issues with Tony Knight and he pretty much got the ball rolling on modern in-lines. It was never his intent to replace SideLocks and in fact, he saved many from getting drilled and tapped for scopes. Every time I see one of these, I just shake my head and walk away. ......

In my reading, I cannot find any reference to Sam and Jake Hawken ever using anything but V-leaf springs. I'm sure if the had a chance, they would have preferred a coil spring. They pretty much stuck to American Black Walnut or Maple. The Lyman Great Plaines, has a coiled spring as well as European Walnut and not made in America. They are still "in-the-sprit. ....

Now TC no longer makes "any" SideLocks so I can safely say that the only domestic models, are from custom makers. ....

It seems that for no logical reason, we back In-Lines. If they are not your cup of tea, so be it. They certainly do not threaten my passion or appreciation for SideLocks. Whether on the bench of in the field, there is not competing.

Quote:
Nor do in-liners give a rats a$$, what we think of them.
Not meant to be personal, By them, I meant the "rifles" .....


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Old June 3, 2013, 10:46 AM   #22
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My take is you stuff the barrel with powder and shot from the front which gives you one shot. How you ignite the powder won't change that, you still have just one shot. Around me there are a lot of reenactors who shoot regularly for fun and most are pretty good, I don't see many of them shooting from the bench but from their hindlegs. I haven't seen that many hunters in my woods but they are there and regardless of gun type they generally only need a single shot. The one that made a bad shot looked for hours for his deer so I would call him a responsible hunter. I later shot the deer he had wounded when it jumped my fence and came towards me opposite the way the hunter was going. I chose an inline because I am often hunting in rain or snow and I wanted something dependable. I wish I had known more about these guns when I made my first purchase because mine is a pain in the yuppers to clean.

I can't complain about the accuracy but its still one shot and done. No scope, no pellets, no modern bullets, no plastic or stainless steel, just me some FFg, a patch, bore butter and a round ball. Flint lock or inline it's still a muzzle loader. To separate the two types or classes is getting to much government in my business, set a season and be done with it.

If I was a trophy hunter with lots of money and no sense of sportsmanship I would have the fanciest rig money could buy with all the bells and whistles that would give a sniper wannabe sexual feelings of adequacy. I'm not, I don't hunt horns I hunt meat and I generally do it with a single shot rifle both centerfire and muzzle loader or I use a revolver with iron sights. If I need a scope it's to far for my gun. Only exception is my deer shotgun, a 2.5X scope helps old eyes a lot. Problem isn't what breed of gun people shoot but are they sportsmen. That seems to be lacking a lot today.
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Old June 3, 2013, 11:12 AM   #23
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IMHO, there's nothing "primitive" about modern inlines. Modern materials like stainless steel and synthetic stocks, modern ignition with shotgun primers, modern blackpowder substitutes, pellets or even smokeless powders, modern jacketed bullets in plastic sabots, modern optical sights and a +200yd effective range does not constitute a traditional muzzleloader. The only way they even qualify is that you load them from the muzzle. In all other regards they are thoroughly modern rifles. They should only be used in the general gun season. Period and I don't care of those who use them like it or not. They are NOT what was intended but were invented solely to skirt the rules and allow hunters who have absolutely no interest in primitive weapons to hunt more.

Drawing the line is easy. I would say:

Flint or percussion cap only, no primers.

Blackpowder or loose substitutes, no pellets or smokeless.

All lead projectiles, no jackets, plastic tips or sabots.

Open or peep sights, no optics or fiber optic sights.
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Old June 3, 2013, 02:31 PM   #24
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^^^

The point I was trying to make in my post
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Old June 4, 2013, 06:40 AM   #25
B.L.E.
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Here's my in-line. It uses real black powder, usually Swiss FFg. It has a G.R. Douglas .50 caliber slow twist patched round ball barrel. It uses #11 percussion caps. It has metal sights.
What advantage would I have over a traditional rifle if I was to use it for deer hunting? Faster to reload? I don't think so. Longer range? No, it still has the ballistics of a patched round ball. It doesn't even have a provision for a field ramrod so I would have to carry a loading rod separately, maybe use it for a walking stick.

So would a traditional looking rifle with a 1 in 28 inch twist for those new fangled bullets that cost a dollar each be more or less offensive to the traditionalists.
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