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Old May 31, 2013, 07:51 PM   #26
Art Eatman
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Sometime around the late 1960s or in the 1970s, I read that annually there were more people who'd become lost in the boonies and had to be rescued by searchers in the southern part of New Jersey, compared to anywhere else in the nation.

Drifting: I think it was in Reader's Digest that I read of an effort to build a railroad across the Great Dismal Swamp in New Jersey. The first effort sank into the bog: Crushed stone, cross ties and rails. They tried again. Same result. Being slow learners, a third effort was made.

Maybe you could find that railroad with a metal detector. Maybe.
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Old May 31, 2013, 08:44 PM   #27
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compared to endless, sterile suburban sprawl,
I could not live thereabouts, either.

There are something like 500 folks living in the friendly confines of my little ville, which I doubt covers a square km ....... it's not endless, and certainly not sterile (that'd be Europe, where children playing in the streets are considered a nuisance).....

It's the inborn idea that only government could solve any problem that I hated about Europe- I noted that nobody owned a pick-up truck there ...... "How do you move anything?", sez I...... "We hire "Moving Men"(unionized, of course!) ...... the idea of solving your own problems without consulting some "-Ampt" or Trade Union Rep was just as foreign to the Europeans I knew as paying the landowner for any game I shot was to me...... completely unthinkable...... which brings us back to the topic at hand: You have a pig problem? I have a bacon deficit. Where's the problem?

Europeans see problems as things to be managed. Americans see problems as something to be solved, and by themselves, on the spot, preferably. Completely different mindsets.
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Old June 1, 2013, 03:52 AM   #28
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Quote:
It's the inborn idea that only government could solve any problem that I hated about Europe- I noted that nobody owned a pick-up truck there ...... "How do you move anything?", sez I...... "We hire "Moving Men"(unionized, of course!) ...... the idea of solving your own problems without consulting some "-Ampt" or Trade Union Rep was just as foreign to the Europeans I knew as paying the landowner for any game I shot was to me...... completely unthinkable...... which brings us back to the topic at hand: You have a pig problem? I have a bacon deficit. Where's the problem?
There are a lot of generalisations in your post. Europe is a big place with lots of countries with different traditions and cultures some even have pick-ups.

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My impression is that hunting in the UK is primarily a rich man's sport.
No most hunting would be done by working class people.

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Old June 1, 2013, 05:38 AM   #29
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Apparently in England wild boar are considered beloved creatures who deserve respect and protection (and what they call a 'proper' hunting season). One hunter said that using a night scope to kill boar is considered murder, and he only shoots them when they have a sporting chance.
I had seen the video before and found the "murder" reference lacking. The guy simply wants a sustained hunting population and anybody hunting in what he considers to be an unethical manner (not fair chase) is committing murder. It is something of the mindset that "If you aren't hunting like I do, then you aren't really hunting. If you aren't hunting, then you are just killing or murdering the animals." He is setting himself as the noble hunter, doing what is good, just, and fair. It is an attitude you can see repeated widely, not just with hogs, on hunting shows and discussed in hunting forums.

Note that wild boar in Britain were extirpated. They were reintroduced to farms/wildlife centers, lost control of, and now there is a viable living population, but this new population is not indigenous to England and is very recent, sort of like elk in Texas. We had them, hunted them out (extirpated), and now they have been reintroduced.
http://www.britishwildboar.org.uk/index.htm?britain.htm

While I hate to think of it in this light, a good problem with feral hogs or actual wild boar may be what England needs to help jump start a pro-firearms movement, though they will probably fail and limit hunting to single shot or double barrel guns and the like.

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Because the boar is native to Europe, Asia, and Africa, those areas harbor diseases and parasites to control its population. We don't have those diseases here. We don't want them.
For the life of me, I cannot find any evidence to support this. Scorch, specifically what diseases and parasites keep the boar population in check in the Old World that we don't have here? Pretty much every single disease carried by hogs in the Old World are diseases we have here, either naturally in wildlife or because of the domestic animal population we have had here in North America for hundreds of years. I don't know about parasites, but I do know that given that hogs have been here and being imported for the last nearly half century, we have already imported the parasites as well. It isn't an issue of us not wanting them here. They are here and are well established.
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Old June 1, 2013, 07:53 AM   #30
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My impression is that hunting in the UK is primarily a rich man's sport. Hunting in the US is becoming that way when there is no BLM land or substantial state owned property. But as always, these lands are not often/usually the "best" places to go.

Quote:
They stipulated the hogs must be "relocated". We took the live hogs out of the traps, loaded them into the toter, hauled them off, shot and field dressed same.
I found this humorous. Beyond humorous actually. I wonder if the people "relocating" the feral hogs in that one TV show actually relocate them in the same fashion once the cameras are turned off? I could never understand why they went to so much trouble except that it would make an interesting TV show and not offend the PETA folks.

The only place I have ever seen wild hogs was Texas. I read about them in my state and see the damage for example in Cades Cove in the Smoky Mt NP, but actually seen one... no.
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Old June 1, 2013, 05:02 PM   #31
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How do they plan on keeping the wild boar population controlled? It will get away from them. It may take a few years, but eventually the pig bomb going to go off there as well. How can they stop it? That's how it's been here; for about 15 years we'd see the occasional boar, it was absolutely no big deal, kind of a novelty, and then it seemed like overnight, they were... everywhere. All the time. Breeding like crazy, getting really aggressive, destroying the land, destroying the crops, attacking people and dogs and local wildlife. We can't trap enough of them, or shoot enough of them, to make a dent, and the population continues to multiply. I walked out one morning, and my front and back lawns were gone overnight; we have to do control burns now to limit the brush, but that doesn't seem to have made much of a difference. The land that is ripped up overnight takes time to heal, and since the hogs just come back again...

I don't get the Brits' attitude, because they are looking at a future that is our present condition, and it ain't pretty. If the boar is not native to England, then they have to choose between ethical hunting, or seeing a lot of their beautiful countryside decimated, and that would just be awful.

We had this great toll road that opened up recently, it gets you to San Antonio so fast, but the pigs are all over it at night. There have been accidents since day one it opened. I don't take it at night, if I can avoid it, or at least I drive it slower (which kind of defeats the purpose!) They say that hitting a pig (or a sounder) is like hitting a bunch of little tanks.

I also don't like when hunters on some forums say that the problem is exaggerated for tv, for ratings, because they don't see that many hogs where they live in Texas. To me that's disrespectful of both nature and their neighbors; just because someone hasn't experienced something personally doesn't mean the threat is not there. People out here are frustrated, and they need help, but even parks and wildlife doesn't have an answer. Trap them, hunt them with dogs, shoot them, poison them (not good, since people eat boar)... but the math doesn't add up to getting even close to an effective response. At least if the pig bomb does go off in England, they can't say they weren't warned.

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Old June 1, 2013, 06:25 PM   #32
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They aren't unaware of the problems. Here's a piece from the Guardian:
Locals have complained that rampaging boars plough up gardens and crops, panic horses, rip up roadside verges, open rubbish bags and are increasingly causing road accidents. "In 18 months' time, it is said we could have 1,000 wild boars in the forest. Nobody knows how many it can sustain," said Martin Quayle, the district council cabinet member for the environment. "They make a hell of a mess of the verges. Some people say the place is so untidy that it's begun to look like a tip. On my lane, they have dug up the verge three times in the last year."

"A lot of people get really steamed up about them. But it's very delicate. Everyone feels there should be some culling, but others say it should be turned into a tourist attraction and that we should attract hunters. Some poaching already goes on."
It's just that the English have a... peculiar attitude toward animals. But if the boars are frightening the horses, that will make then get serious about the problem. That is right out.
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Old June 1, 2013, 06:48 PM   #33
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About 4 years ago, my wife's grandfather gave me a nice lecture at Thanksgiving about feral hog management here in Texas. He went into great detail about identification of sows and not shooting them. The idea was that you wanted to preserve the population for future hunting and if you kill off the sows, you ruin your hunting.

Mind you, it had been since the 80s, probably early 80s since he last had a lease or hunted hogs. Where he did have a lease was not good hog habitat either.

No matter how I tried to explain to him that times had changed, he thought me the dolt for wanting to shoot sows.

The Brits don't have a crisis with their boar population at this time. It may take a while before they do. Until then, folks like the guy in the OP's Youtube video or folks like my wife's grandfather will vehemently oppose what they consider to be wrongful hunting or overhunting.
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Old June 1, 2013, 06:56 PM   #34
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It won't be long before wild hogs are tearing up the beautiful British countryside. Folks who don't deal with wild hogs on a regular basis have no idea of their destructive capabilities.

On another website a guy who never saw a wild hog took me to task for a photo showing dead hogs in a trap. He accused me "unsportsmanlike conduct" for shooting "game animals" in a trap. i played nice guy and tried to explain that wild hogs here are out of control and adversely impact wild game. Attempted to explain that wild hogs here are not game animals; to no avail.

This photo set the guy off:

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Old June 1, 2013, 07:40 PM   #35
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That picture doesn't bother me a bit. But show me a picture of a dog or house cat that someone has shot and is proclaiming that they are ridding a menance.... I get a bit irratated. I know they can be problems. But nothing like hogs.
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Old June 1, 2013, 07:42 PM   #36
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I guess you can agree with him that that is not hunting, nor is it meant to be. If he had a barn full of rats, would he insist on killing them one at a time? Hogs are not protected because they are considered a dangerous, invasive pest, harmful to the native environment and native species, and as such are not afforded a hunting season.

I saw a documentary on the problem of raccoons in Japan. Apparently in the sixties there was an introduction of raccoons as pets because of, I think, a cartoon. When they realized that raccoons do not make good pets their owners just released them. Four decades later the raccoon population exploded, and the raccoons are destroying the wooden houses and shrines in this area of Japan. Now all raccoons are killed on sight. It is heartbreaking, because it was the ignorance of people that caused the problem; it wasn't the raccoons' fault, but they pay the price. Starlings and English Sparrows were introduced into Central Park (to honor Shakespeare), and now they are successful competitors of native birds like Purple Martins and Bluebirds, and they are also not protected (and again, it's not their fault). We've got to stop being so short-sighted.

By the way, was the trapper able to donate the meat? There are lots of people here who would be very grateful to be able to fire up the grill and feed them to their families.
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Old June 1, 2013, 08:25 PM   #37
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Speaking of a barn full of rats, there is a woman in UK who kills them with an airgun with night vision - she is pretty darn good! https://www.youtube.com/user/snypercat

And if anyone wants to know more about hog population control in Texas: http://feralhogs.tamu.edu/

A "fair use" quote from their FAQ page:

Quote:
11. How hard they are to kill?

How hard are they to kill with what? Very hard with a sling shoot or BB gun! Seriously, most archers shoot wild pigs in the heart /lung region immediately behind the shoulder from broadside or at a slightly quartering away angle. Hunters using firearms are advised to shoot the pigs in the neck or in the vitals (heart/lung region). Preferred rifles for pigs are 25 to 30 caliber. Regardless of the caliber/weapon, shot placement is essential for a clean and ethical kill. Archers typically limit their shots to 25‐30 yards to help ensure a clean kill.
I will add that a .223 soft point in the chest works too, even is it is considered an anemic round.
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Old June 1, 2013, 09:25 PM   #38
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Quote:
By the way, was the trapper able to donate the meat?
Yes, my trapper friend kept the small one; the others were field dressed and given to a family who needed the meat. So far this year we have given away about 70 hogs.
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Old June 2, 2013, 12:22 AM   #39
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That's so great, Thallub!
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Old June 3, 2013, 06:46 PM   #40
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I can remember very vividly when my uncle together with 4 other hunters allowed me to join them on a boar hunt in a small forest near Tours. I was 11 years old then and they charged me with holding their shotgun shells and sandwiches. We walked for what seemed hours through the woods, seeing signs of boars everywhere, but no boar. Finally, as the day ended, a very large boar was spotted and it charged one of the men who didn't see it, and gored him in his legs. The animals was shot dead and I found myself up in a tree without remembering how I got there.

Massive beast it was, at least to the boy I was. The injured man was sent to the hospital and came through ok, and we all had a cut of good meat which we brought home - one of the men was a butcher by trade and made quick work of it. It was without a doubt the most frightening boar hunt I've ever witnessed. Today, they are still there. If you visit the castles of the Loire River, you will find Château de Chambord, and find signs of wild boar everywhere. They dig the ground with their tusks and there are holes everywhere. Today, my uncle is 87 years old, and once a year, he still goes to hunt boar, thought now he rides a small electric golf cart while others walk.
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Old June 3, 2013, 08:01 PM   #41
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Yikes! How frightening. Thank goodness you weren't hurt.

Our trapper has moved his traps again. The really big one is now in the pecan field, and I can see it from my kitchen window. I don't think it's been triggered yet, but that's the first thing I'm going to be checking out in the morning! Our newest sounder has about five brown sows and some older brown piglets. I hardly ever see the lone boars, but the sounders come through regularly.
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Old June 4, 2013, 04:31 AM   #42
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It seems like Brits are loosing everything they fought for since the signing of the Magna Carta. They might as well restore the throne...

I wish I was close enough to Texas to come down and help with the problem. There's not much game here to speak of...

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Old June 4, 2013, 02:35 PM   #43
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Hey Geezer, they still have the throne... and a queen, and a prince in line to become king. ALthough they appear figure headed from this side of the pond, having just come from the UK, parliament through the prime minister still brings everything before the queen...

What they really need are their guns back. Stabbings are the crime du jour... hence the death of one of their own soldier on the street.
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Old June 4, 2013, 07:26 PM   #44
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While interesting sentiments, I am fairly certain that the boar issue has nothing to do with a soldier getting killed on the street, crime, their type of government, the throne, or the Queen.

England isn't America and vice versa. They managed to extirpate all their boars previously, something we haven't even come close to dreaming we could accomplish. They had to import them just to have examples in their zoos, LOL.

Just because they don't do things like we do doesn't mean they are wrong. Boars were part of their natural animal community. Just as there are people there who want them back as a proper indigenous game animal, there are people in the US who don't want to lose them as a game animal either, though many of us consider them to be pests. Perspective is a funny thing
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Old June 4, 2013, 10:34 PM   #45
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I'm guessing that the people who don't want to lose the boar as game don't own their own ranch or farm; they really need to think of the rights of other people, and the continued harm they cause them by keeping these non-indigenous pests around (not that we have a choice, cos the pigs are probably here to stay). Oh, joy.
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Old June 5, 2013, 04:52 AM   #46
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I suppose part of that perspective is if you live in an area that is overpopulated with them.

There's so few feral pigs in Oregon, you may never see one here...

Tony
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Old June 5, 2013, 07:58 AM   #47
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Quote:
I'm guessing that the people who don't want to lose the boar as game don't own their own ranch or farm; they really need to think of the rights of other people, and the continued harm they cause them by keeping these non-indigenous pests around (not that we have a choice, cos the pigs are probably here to stay). Oh, joy.
It isn't an issue about the rights of others. Just because you like something does not mean that you are ignoring the rights of others. However, where one person's rights stop is where another person's rights start and vice versa. Those that want feral hogs obliterated would be just as guilty of your stipulated "ignoring the rights of others" as well.

Those that don't want to lose boar as game (hunting definition, not legal definition) aren't fighting legal battles to keep them protected. In many cases, the boar provide hunting and food when no other larger animal hunting is legal (no season).

Personally, I would like to see everyone's right to hunt feral hogs in the US ruined by a lack of hogs. However, like others who enjoy hunting them and reaping their benefits, I would miss being able to hunt them if they were gone, though that isn't stopping me from shooting every last one I can when I can and how I can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy1LBsRyHGg

Sadly, I am secure in the notion that nobody's hog hunting is apt to be ruined anytime soon by an actual lack of hogs.

Farmers and ranchers have the right to fence out hogs and to shoot every last one of them as well (in most states in accord with depredation laws). This would go for many types of animals that damage their crops or threaten livestock. Yes, it might be expensive, but if the issue is one of rights, then they have the right to implement such measures.
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Old June 5, 2013, 08:30 AM   #48
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DNS, you make some interesting points regarding peoples rights, but to boil it down, $5B in crop damage/year nationwide from an invasive species is nothing to dismiss. Yes, our hunting culture has embraced hog hunting (I grew up doing it), but when put in the context that this is an invasive species, I don't know that I don't see a problem here (note double negative context).

There are other contextual problems in other areas as well. Silver or big head carp in the Mississippi working their way upstream to the Great Lakes is one problem. If they hit the Great Lakes, the impact on the fishing industry will be huge.

The Snakehead problem on the East Coast threatens to push out native fish species including bass, which creates revenue from bass tournaments up and down the east coast.

Lastly, look at the python issue in the Everglades in Florida.

Hogs are more entrenched, having primarily been around long enough to become an accepted norm, but in reality, aren't they they same as these other invasives?

Don't get me wrong, hog hunting generates a LOT of revenue, and I enjoy a bit of it myself when stationed where they are, but at what cost?
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Old June 5, 2013, 02:06 PM   #49
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Yep, hogs cost money. They exist and will continue to exist whether we want them to or not. I am not sure where the money issue you are referencing figures into the issue, however.

They may be historically invasive here (indigenous in England and the rest of the Old World, paleontologically indigenous to the New World as well), but invasive or not, they are an industry supplied/refreshed/rejuvenated by some of the very ranching landowners justplainpossum is saying would be offended by hunters who want to keep them. After all, they raise hogs and hogs get loose just like all the rest of the livestock...sooner or later.
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Old June 5, 2013, 06:00 PM   #50
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Double Naught, I just read that quote from your daughter. That's great!

As far as the hogs... I guess I don't like the judgmental attitudes, like the one experienced by the poster who put up the photo that caused such consternation. There is a slowly growing population in northern rural New York; in a few years, states that rarely see them may begin to experience the land and crop destruction that is so abundant down south. And I do blame the hunting ranches (as opposed to cattle and sheep ranches, or farms). If I could I would ask them, what in the world were you thinking, bringing in aggressive, fast breeding, ground destroying wild boars?? I would say the same thing to the people who released pythons in Florida and starlings in New York; what were you thinking? To me, it's just an example of being a bad neighbor.

Actually, it reminds me a little of Jurassic Park. "That control you're talking about, John, is not possible." Right before the the T-Rex takes his little stroll...
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