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Old May 27, 2013, 09:45 PM   #1
bigbore96
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454 casull vs 460 sw

I am looking at the differences between the 454 and 460 and I have a few questions.

first question is can you shoot 460 through a 454 I know the opposite works but have never seen that way before.

second question is which one would be the best for deer.
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Old May 28, 2013, 03:45 AM   #2
RsqVet
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No it would not be considered safe to shoot the 460 in any 454 gun that I am aware of.

Think of the 454 as 45 colt magnum and the 460 as 454 magnum. So just like one would not try and shoot a 357 mag from a 38 special gun one would not stuff a 460 in a 454 and the case length and chambers are engineered to prevent this. Only exception could be the 410 shotgun revolvers that will chamber 454 or 460 with likely deadly results for the operator.

As for suitability for deer either should be sufficient at reasonable range and with a good platform and shooter. I rarely see someone suggest the 44 mag is not enough for deer and in fact many highly regard it for deer esp in carbine length rifles. At 1.5 times or so the energy of the 44 mag the 454 should be more than enough. The 460 even more so.

Be warned full house 454 loads are stout medicine and likely best avoided for deer. A mid range load will be enough. If you are worried about dangerous game hunting or defense then it is time to look towards the max 454 loadings.

I am not trying to sound harsh but if one has to ask if the 460 can chamber in the 454 then please carefully consider your gun / ammo choice and skill level before going afield with a handgun to try and harvest a deer.
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Old May 28, 2013, 03:59 AM   #3
kahrguy
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Spend some time looking at the revolvers size and weight for a 460 and deside if it makes sense at all. Short of just wanting to impress some one the 454 or 44 with handloads or specialty ammo and do it with a much lighter handgun at practical revolver hunting distances. None of these rounds when loaded near max pressure are enjoyable to shoot for many novice shooters and can wear on you shooting from the bench.
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Old May 28, 2013, 06:33 AM   #4
Capt Rick Hiott
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BigBore,,,,,you should get this book and read it before you buy. It will help you a LOT!!

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Bore-Revol.../dp/1440228566

I went with the Taurus Raging Bull 454 Casull. Its more than enough gun for a deer. I bought mine for hogs,,,and buddy It will put them down!! With regular factory loads I can shoot the gun with one hand. The ported barrel helps a lot!



But to answer your question,,Im pretty sure you cant shoot a 460 round in a gun rated for 454. The 460 shell is longer.
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Old May 28, 2013, 07:28 AM   #5
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You wouldn't be able to chamber a 460 round in a 454 cylinder since the 460s are almost a half inch longer.

Here's a pic. 45 Colt on the left, then 454, then 460.

I have both a 454 and a 460. The 454 is really more than most people would ever need. If your goal is long range target shooting, large animal hunting (elk, moose, grizzlies, or dangerous game in Africa, then a 460 may be what your looking for. But even then, a 454 would most likely do the job. The 460 is a hoot to shoot though.

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Old May 28, 2013, 08:09 AM   #6
Brian Pfleuger
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I'd get a .460 just for the versatility. Shoot .460, 454 casull, 45colt, even 45 schofield. I wouldn't worry about the weight of a hunting revolver. It's going to be lighter than almost any conceivable rifle and we lug those around all day.

In regard to what will chamber, you can "always" go down (in power) but you can never go up. If the gun would chamber (safely fire) a 460, they'd call it a 460. "Bragging rights" if nothing else.
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Old May 28, 2013, 11:53 AM   #7
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If you don't have the skill and need to shoot game at 200yds, you don't need the .460. If you don't have the skill and need to shoot game at 150yds, you don't need the .454. It's really that simple. To answer your question, the .41Mag, .44Mag and .45Colt are more than enough for deer without all the unnecessary foolishness you get with the .454 or .460.


Quote:
I wouldn't worry about the weight of a hunting revolver.
I would. Big difference between a 40-50oz .44 or .45 and an +80oz X-frame. Big enough to matter.
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Old May 28, 2013, 03:35 PM   #8
bigbore96
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The main reason for the question was to see if the 460 would chamber in the Rossi 454 barrel because they do not offer, to my knowledge a 460 barrel and I would really like to use the 460 for extra range since I live in Indiana I can not use a high powered rifle and in there single shot I did not think the case length would matter
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Old May 28, 2013, 04:19 PM   #9
RsqVet
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Single shot or revolver or whatever has nothing to do with it, if the chamber is not reamed deep enough then the round will not chamber.

If the gun is marked for 454 and nothing else then for safety sake a 460 should not chamber in it; that is why most magnum rounds are made longer, to prevent backwards use in guns made for the parent round that are not strong enough to handle it.
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Old May 28, 2013, 10:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
If you don't have the skill and need to shoot game at 200yds, you don't need the .460. If you don't have the skill and need to shoot game at 150yds, you don't need the .454. It's really that simple.
Seeing as everything we are doing today was done 100 years before the 460 I doubt anyone really NEEDS a 460. Many might want it though. Even a novice handgun hunter. One it gives some room to grow and second it will extend point blank range. Adding ten yards to PBR on each end is a pretty big plus for someone that only has the skill to shoot at 100 yards.

It is also important to keep in mind most aren't shooting these pistols off hand. They are being shot off of rests or bipods with optics.
My 460 Barrel goes to my smith to be tapped and chromed in a week or so. After i send a few rounds down range I will have a better idea, but it seem to me like shooting a pistol off of a bipod is somewhere between shooting a rifle and a normal pistol and wouldn't take an extreme level of skill. Maybe the paper will laugh at me though.
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Old May 29, 2013, 01:03 AM   #11
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It's perfectly fine to want whatever you want. The point being that a lot of people seem to think they 'need' .454's and .460's for normal deer hunting at normal handgun ranges. Lots of folks believing in the energy myth. Most would be better served with less and should not fall victim to the marketing and hype. The .454 and .460 are just a lot of unnecessary recoil, muzzle blast and expense. People should know that going in, with their eyes wide open.
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Old May 29, 2013, 01:41 AM   #12
saleen322
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One of the hype issues is the alleged accuracy of the .460. Here are two 5-shot groups shot back to back at 100 yards with only a sighting change in between. I was thinking if it was a little high at 100 I could hold dead on and hit a deer sized animal easily out to 200+. The first group....
Then a sight adjustment and 5 more...

Maybe all revolvers can do that and I was just a victim of marketing...
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Old May 29, 2013, 08:20 AM   #13
johnwilliamson062
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Nice group.

I doubt many ?460 XVR? revolvers can match that though.

For people in rational states these calibers may seem odd. In Ohio where hunting laws are entirely irrational, especially if your goal is to put 100 pounds of free range red meat on the table instead of bagging a trophy, these guns are quite popular. Shotguns are sloppy at best and rifles aren't allowed except for muzzle loaders. I've hunted with my inline exclusively the last few seasons, but I have grown tired of all the complications that go with it. Being able to carry a couple small cartridges and simply eject them once finished will be a LOT simpler.
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Old May 29, 2013, 08:53 AM   #14
Brian Pfleuger
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While shooting a handgun from a bipod is indeed "between a handgun and a rifle", I'd put it much closer to handgun than rifle. It's very difficult.
I would be entirely comfortable taking a shot at a deer at 300 yards with a rifle on a bipod. With the handgun (mine's an Encore), 150 yards is REALLY pushing it if all you've got is the bipod. The gun is certainly capable, most shooters are not.
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Old May 29, 2013, 09:32 AM   #15
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What I don't necessarily understand is this,

What I found online with my limited amount of research shows that both .454 and .460 operate at the same pressure. I ASSume that the greater case capacity allows for the .460 to operate at a higher pressure for a longer period then the .454

But why couldn't you take a gun like per say a Raging Judge Magnum chambered in .454 but with a cylinder plenty long enough to accommodate a .460 and ream it to .460 and fire it safely? Seeing as the gun is rated for the same 60k or so psi.

I could only ASSume (once again) that at the very least even if you had to download the .460 rounds slightly the greatly reduced jump from the case moth to the forcing cone would help in accuracy.
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Old May 29, 2013, 09:32 AM   #16
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Saleen, that is some very good shooting with the 460. Wish I could shoot as well.

I agree with Brian that shooting a handgun, even with the aid of a bipod, is more akin to shooting a handgun versus a rifle. The little Henry Mare's Leg 22LR is harder to shoot well as compared to the regular Henry lever action even from a good rest.

Either the 460 or 454 are plenty of power for a whitetail. Plenty! I think you're generally good to go on whitetails above 357 mag even though many do in fact use the 357 mag for hunting whitetails. There has been an evolution of thought on this choice and the larger diameter bullet seems to win. I feel sure just about every big game animal in North America has been taken with a 357 mag, but that doesn't change my belief that you should choose something a little larger shot from a hangun.
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Old May 29, 2013, 09:39 AM   #17
kahrguy
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bigbore96 now you know you can not chamber a 460 in a 454 anything.
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Old May 29, 2013, 10:02 AM   #18
newfrontier45
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The .454 and .460 operate at identical pressures so yes, if rechambering from .454 to .460 is possible, it would be safe.
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Old May 29, 2013, 10:04 AM   #19
newfrontier45
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Quote:
Maybe all revolvers can do that and I was just a victim of marketing...
That's some fine shooting and illustrates my point. You're using twice as much powder, carrying twice as much revolver yet unless YOU can shoot consistently at 200yds, it's a lot of extra for no good reason.
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Old May 29, 2013, 10:15 AM   #20
RedBowTies88
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The .454 and .460 operate at identical pressures so yes, if rechambering from .454 to .460 is possible, it would be safe.
That's the logical way to think about it. But the begging question is if it is indeed possible... why didn't the manufacturer just do it from the get go and have more advertising ammunition to sell their product? It's not like it would cost them any more during production.

Some how some way the .460 is producing more energy then the .454 while not exceeding the same pressure limit. I can only assume it's maintaining a higher pressure for a longer period. The question is... does this effect create a situation which is more prone to failure then the shorter pressure window.


Another thing to think about, with the longer case you're now producing that pressure over a larger area at the time of ignition.
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Old May 29, 2013, 10:26 AM   #21
newfrontier45
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In this case, since the two cartridges are the same diameter and operate at the same pressures, length is the only concern. Pressure curves are a non-issue in revolvers.
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Old May 29, 2013, 10:29 AM   #22
RedBowTies88
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The .460 is a little over 10mm longer.
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Old May 29, 2013, 02:22 PM   #23
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That's some fine shooting and illustrates my point. You're using twice as much powder, carrying twice as much revolver yet unless YOU can shoot consistently at 200yds, it's a lot of extra for no good reason.
That went over my head as I don't understand your point. A .460 gives you a .45 Colt for plinking (and small powder charges), a .454 if you want a little more pop, and a full on .460 S&W if you wish. Does it weigh more than a J frame Smith, yes; but not so different than one of my Contenders. Did you mean the accuracy is not needed unless shooting 200 yards? While it may be overkill to hit the same bullet hole at 25 yards, accurate guns ARE more interesting.
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Old May 29, 2013, 03:24 PM   #24
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I don't call that versatility. I personally wouldn't buy a 5lb gun to shoot .45Colt mousefart loads from. I can do that much more easily with a 36oz SAA. Nor would I buy one to shoot .454 loads from. I can do that much more easily in a 45oz FA.

IMHO, 99% of the so-called advantages espoused by .460 owners are inventions designed to justify their purchase. "Because I want one" is a perfectly legitimate reason for owning one and I don't condemn anyone for doing so. I just don't want any would-be first time handgun hunters to think they "need" such a monstrosity to kill deer.
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Old May 29, 2013, 04:46 PM   #25
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Gotcha, you don't want a .460 so I am guessing you don't own one now or ever did. My posts are based on actual experience. Large bore, powerful revolvers are not for everyone and the fact that a .460 is a little less than 12 ounces heavier than my Dan Wesson that I used to hunt with may be too heavy for some folks. The OP asked about .460 in a .454 and received his answer. From actual experience shooting one, a .460 is effective for deer--not so much because of the energy but it is near the head of the pack in flat trajectory for revolvers which takes range guessing out of the equation at all reasonable pistol distances. Just aim at the deer and you don't have to worry about holdover. BTW, As someone who has actually shot .45 Colt loads out of the XVR, I thought it was great fun. We all have our preferences. YMMV.

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