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Old May 25, 2013, 04:31 PM   #1
Koda94
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accident retention....

What happens to your gun if you get injured in a car accident and need to go to the hospital?

a) if your concious and can talk.
b) if your knocked out and unconcious

Lets say your traveling alone, and have no one to take your gun home properly.
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Old May 25, 2013, 05:20 PM   #2
g.willikers
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It would depend on where it happens.
Some places, the police or other responders would just secure it and keep it for you.
Other places, the reaction would be about the same as for an alien invasion.
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Old May 25, 2013, 05:42 PM   #3
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I’m an EMT and we just had a class on this subject. Mostly for an “Officer Involved Trauma” and partly because Illinois is soon to have CCW and we may run across carried weapons. (May be different state to state) In a nut shell, the EMS responder would disarm the injured person, regardless if you are able to communicate or not, while leaving the firearm in it‘s holster, (cutting it off if needed, but never removing it from holster) and the weapon would now be owned / in control of EMS. The firearm can only be released to a uniformed officer, and should be as soon as practical. The firearm can not be turned over to anyone but a uniformed officer. Not plain cloths, not a detective, only a uniformed officer. EMS will record the name, badge number and department information of the officer that takes possession. This recorded information will be on the EMS report, so the injured person can easily find out who has the firearm.
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Old May 25, 2013, 06:19 PM   #4
Koda94
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Mike38, thats actually good to know. I cant help but wonder a few things regarding your reply though...
I don't know EMT training state to state so this may be a dumb question but my first hunch is can training requirements vary state to state?

and then, how easy is it to get your gun back from the police? Are there any legal rights? I imagine that also varies state to state more so...
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Old May 25, 2013, 06:41 PM   #5
kraigwy
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Been there, done that. A couple times.

I inventoried the car, sensitive items like a firearm I took and put in evidence for safe keeping.

As soon as possible, I'd go to the hospital and give the victim a receipt for the property or have the hospital staff add the receipt to the victim's personal property.

It was returned to the owner when he came to claim it. OR, his designee or next of kin if he/she couldn't come and retrieve it.
--------------------------------
In case the individual driver isn't hurt, he is given the gun back when he leaves the scene or if I give him a ride home, as he leaves my custody.

That happened to my wife. She was in a car wreck in Indiana (Indiana recognizes WY's permits). Her car had to be towed, prior to the tow truck leaving, the officer asked if she needed to retrieve any thing from the car. She said she had a revolver in the glove compartment and showed her WY Permit.

The officer took the gun, unloaded it, and gave her a ride to the police station where she waited for her brother to come pick her up. When her brother arrived the officer gave my wife the revolver and ammo.

He was very courteous.

Only I had to take my trailer to Indiana to Indiana to get my wife, granddaughter, her revolver and car.
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Old May 25, 2013, 09:43 PM   #6
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I have served with a VFD for over twenty years and have only had a few occasions where an EMS patient was armed. One was a local deputy who had been first on scene of an elderly couple overcome by carbon monoxide and gone in to pull them out, getting a good dose of it himself. Another deputy arrived before we got him in the ambulance and secured his weapons. Being sensitive to civilian CCW issues, I have on a few occasions been told by a patient that they were carrying a handgun. I prefer to take it holster and all and turn it over to the first cop to show up so they can lock it in their vehicle, but will get out of the middle of the scene and unload it if need be. Around here, as long as its not stolen and the carrier is not forbidden to have it they will get it back no problem.
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Old May 25, 2013, 09:52 PM   #7
Mike38
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Quote:
I don't know EMT training state to state so this may be a dumb question but my first hunch is can training requirements vary state to state?

and then, how easy is it to get your gun back from the police? Are there any legal rights? I imagine that also varies state to state more so...

I’m not really very savvy on EMS training state to state. Got my license in Illinois, and have never moved. I do know, that if I was to move to another state, I have to reapply for that state’s license through their Department of Public Health. As for getting your gun returned, well, it shouldn’t be any more difficult then other property. But you never know. Not much help, am I?
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Old May 25, 2013, 10:11 PM   #8
JohnKSa
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I prefer to take it holster and all...
That is, by far, the safest way to go.

This is a good reason to use a holster in the first place, and, second, to use a holster that can be easily removed from the belt. My carry holsters all have loops can be unsnapped to easily remove the holster and gun together.
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Old May 26, 2013, 08:11 AM   #9
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Great question and great answers. I never even though about what would happen if armed and hurt.
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Old May 26, 2013, 11:50 AM   #10
Koda94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreyzhorse
Great question and great answers. I never even though about what would happen if armed and hurt.
Ironically, I didn't either even after all these years. Of course I have been fortunate enough to have not been involved in an injury accident. I stewed on the question a while and didn't know so I asked here. Good to know so far the general consensus is the EMT team has a plan and the intent is to return the gun to the owner.

One other thought I have about this is if I was with company and could they properly take responsibility for the gun? Would they need a CHL for the time to take it home if they unloaded it?
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Old May 26, 2013, 12:32 PM   #11
Mike38
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…..if I was with company and could they properly take responsibility for the gun?
If it was me, no, the firearm would get turned over to uniformed law enforcement. Not because I am being difficult, but because it is what we were told to do.

It was a very interesting class we had on Officer Involved Trauma / CCW Citizen. How to safely disarm. Where to look for arms. Where to look for a BUG. We even had a fully dressed Officer in a car and we had to disarm him and remove him from his squad car. This Officer only carried one duty pistol. Some Officers carry two, even three handguns. And that belt with all the equipment they wear. It weighs about 15 pounds and is fastened with Velcro straps in 4 to 6 points. Difficult to remove when he is sitting in a car.
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Old May 26, 2013, 12:43 PM   #12
Koda94
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If it was me, no, the firearm would get turned over to uniformed law enforcement.
I understand, but what I meant was before EMT or other first responders arrive.

(I know, this is a slight twist on my OP)

I need to revisit my state laws on transporting a gun on person without a CHL in case you wanted to give your gun to a companion while you wait for the ambulance. What I'm looking for is it even legal at all or can it be broken down?I can only assume one wont have a spare hardcase floating around, just a gun in a holster.
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Old May 28, 2013, 03:55 PM   #13
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I need to revisit my state laws on transporting a gun on person without a CHL
Just out of curiousity, if you're worried about that wouldn't it just make sense to get a CHL?

EDIT:

Ah, you meant giving it to a person who doesn't have a CHL. Duh. Maybe I should have read this part:
Quote:
in case you wanted to give your gun to a companion while you wait for the ambulance.
That's actually an interesting question. I suppose all state open- and concealed-carry laws would apply. If the uninjured person didn't have a CHL and took the gun, unloaded it, and put it in a bag or something that would probably still be technically illegal, though I doubt it would ever be prosecuted in those circumstances. Though I guess these days it's a bad idea to assume any technical infraction of gun laws, no matter how benign, will be ignored.
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Old May 28, 2013, 06:02 PM   #14
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That's actually an interesting question. I suppose all state open- and concealed-carry laws would apply.
You had it perfect but couldn't leave it alone, (lol).
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Old May 28, 2013, 11:56 PM   #15
Koda94
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Theohazard, you got it

looking into the law for Oregon, in short: you cannot give your gun to someone unless that person has on them a CHL.

Here are the only exceptions:
>that person (does not have to walk home and) can get a ride the gun can be put in the trunk or transported in a manner in the vehicle that is not 'readily accessible'.
>that person could technically open carry, except in Multnomah county that just passed an open carry prohibition law.

Source: ORS 166.250

I should probably check the laws for Washington... Anyways, if something happens you have to trust the whole process of declaring and turning your gun over to the police to recover later. I tried to think of ways around it, like a locked case but carrying an inaccessible gun on your person is still possession which is illegal.
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Old May 29, 2013, 01:09 AM   #16
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I have been an EMT for 5 years. I can tell you that any and all personal property removed from a patient's control is documented and accounted for at all times. In the instance of an accident with injuries where you as the patient required transportation to a higher level of care, I would secure your firearm and place it in the front of the truck for our mutual safety if a uniformed officer was not present. However in my area there is always a uniformed officer present at a 10-48 so I would request that he take control of the firearm. All of this would, as stated, be documented. Any patient with an altered level of consciousness will be disarmed regardless if it is a firearm, knife, pepper spray, etc. Even though I am there only to help, patients with an altered LOC don't always have the capacity at that moment to understand.
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Old May 29, 2013, 05:07 AM   #17
JimmyR
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Like some others, I have been involved in an MVA while carrying. I work in a GFZ, so I normally either carry a gun in my glove box or in the map pocket.

When I had my accident, I was stuck in the car (no one else in the car), and had to be cut from the car and taken directly to the hospital. I notified the LEO's on the scene that my gun was in the glove box. The officer doing the accident report notified me that the weapon had been taken into evidence, and I would need to call and pick it up. I called the main office, and was relayed to a detective in charge of the evidence. I arranged a time, and my pistol was in a box, zip lied down, magazine removed, round removed from the chamber. Didn't take very long, basically just as long as it took for me to get a ride to the police department.
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Old May 29, 2013, 09:24 AM   #18
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Most likely my gun would be locked in my glove box, since I pretty much keep it locked there when I'm driving. I, therefore, would expect it to be there locked up, unless the police had some reason to get a court order to break into my glove box.

BTW, I drive a stick shift, so it's no big deal for me to quickly take my keys out of the ignition and unlock the box, while the car is still going (coasting). Safe? No. Doable? Yes.
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Old May 29, 2013, 09:42 AM   #19
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Most likely my gun would be locked in my glove box, since I pretty much keep it locked there when I'm driving. I, therefore, would expect it to be there locked up, unless the police had some reason to get a court order to break into my glove box.

BTW, I drive a stick shift, so it's no big deal for me to quickly take my keys out of the ignition and unlock the box, while the car is still going (coasting). Safe? No. Doable? Yes.
Better hope you don't need to turn the wheel... column lock would not be fun.
better off getting a second key and sticking it somewhere in your car OR on a quick disconnect key ring with the key that's still in your ignition.


Back t ohe original question. If that happened here you most likely wouldn't be seeing your gun for months... if you don't end up in jail because you were "deviating" (stopped at Micky d's or we're picking up your buddy to go to the range) at the time.
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Old May 29, 2013, 04:57 PM   #20
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I've deleted some posts. Let's stay on topic.
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Old May 30, 2013, 01:05 AM   #21
JimmyR
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Originally Posted by Skans
Most likely my gun would be locked in my glove box, since I pretty much keep it locked there when I'm driving. I, therefore, would expect it to be there locked up, unless the police had some reason to get a court order to break into my glove box.
I think the condition of the car and the physical integrity of your glove box post accident might play a factor. My car, for example, was totally demolished, and so them taking my gun was the best way to make sure it remained inaccessible to unathorized users. My car spent 4-5 days in the wrecker lot before I was able to go clean it out- the wrecker has the key in the switch. Honestly, I think I trust uniformed LEOs I don't know over junkyard owners I don't know, all other things being equal.
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Old May 30, 2013, 01:33 AM   #22
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For all my fellow EMT's, If you take the National Registry EMT test you can practice in 50 states.
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Old May 30, 2013, 01:52 AM   #23
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Good question, good answers.

It happened to me (no CCW permit either). I had my CA Bulldog with me in my service van, holstered and a semi-permanent holster mount in my homemade wooden console between the front seats up front. I blacked out at the wheel doing 70 on the highway, left the road and rolled the truck 3 times. I was very lucky (ahem) to survive. The gun was recovered in the far rear of the truck by the tow truck driver! No EMS or LEO ever seen it, they were all working up front.

In the hospital, I awoke to an officer asking me questions about the accident and my gun came to mind, so I asked him what became of it? He said he hadn't heard of it, and didn't want to hear about it. I dropped the subject and wondered for a few days about it, chalking it up to be 'gone'. Luckily for me, the tow truck driver was a good christian man, and told me about it on the phone a few days later while I was recovering from the surgery in the hospital (broke my back in 2 places ). We were talking on the phone about the van and where it could be recovered and he said, oh I found your gun in the back by the door and have it in my safe and am keeping it for you. I was lucky he was a good honest man and returned it.
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Old May 30, 2013, 09:37 AM   #24
Skans
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I think the condition of the car and the physical integrity of your glove box post accident might play a factor. My car, for example, was totally demolished, and so them taking my gun was the best way to make sure it remained inaccessible to unathorized users. My car spent 4-5 days in the wrecker lot before I was able to go clean it out- the wrecker has the key in the switch. Honestly, I think I trust uniformed LEOs I don't know over junkyard owners I don't know, all other things being equal.
I've totaled a car before, and yes, it's taken to the wrecker yard until you can retrieve it. My vehicle is (was) worth about $22,000. My gun is worth about $325 - about the value of the two rear wheels/tires on my totaled car. I had to go to the hospital for a day. I'm at a loss to understand why I would worry about someone stealing my $325 gun out of a locked glove compartment in a locked car on a secured wrecker lot? I suppose a thief could break into my house and steal my guns out of my safe too.

Look, I do believe I have some moral duty to be responsible in how I handle and store my gun. Having it in a locked glove box while I'm in the vehicle more than meets my moral obligation, in my opinion. Legally, I could have the gun wedged between my parking brake and my seat, or just sitting on the passenger seat, since I have a carry permit. Different states, different requirements, but in the states I travel in - no problem.
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Old May 30, 2013, 10:43 PM   #25
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I'm at a loss to understand why I would worry about someone stealing my $325 gun out of a locked glove compartment in a locked car on a secured wrecker lot? I suppose a thief could break into my house and steal my guns out of my safe too.
Pretty hard for someone working at the lot to put your car in their pocket and walk out and then pretend like they never had it and it was lost at the scene.
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