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Old May 11, 2013, 01:12 PM   #1
M1Rifle30-06
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Why Aren't 8 Shots Enough?

I may be biased, but I still just can't understand this.

Why is 8 shots from a Garand (or 10 shots from an SKS or other 8-10 shot semi auto rifle) is considered sub-par for a "go-to" rifle by most people, but 6-8 shots from a much slower and higher recoiling 12 gauge pump action shotgun is considered optimal?

There's 30-06 and .308 loads that penetrate less than buckshot, cause massive tissue damage, and you get more range and a reliable semi automatic action, not to mention faster reload.

Granted, a Garand is a bit longer than a shotgun, but the point still stands.
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Old May 11, 2013, 01:21 PM   #2
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I'm sure it has mostly to do with engaging multiple targets. It goes without saying that if you were faced with multiple tangos, you would want the most amount of rounds in your gun. While most "reviews" will state low magazine capacity as a caveat of those two platforms, it is generally included because the rifles are just really too dang heavy for any serious social work considering the light and high capacity rifles available today. I don't see any problem using an SKS or a Garand for the job. They are great rifles and few can deny that. They are, however, extremely heavy.
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Old May 11, 2013, 01:24 PM   #3
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With any rifle, particularly under stress, the odds of hitting a particular vital organ to cause an instant stop to the threat are pretty low, so the requirement of multiple hits per target is assumed. With the 12 gauge and any sort of Buck sized shot, multiple hits are much more likely and there's more momentum dumped into the target with each trigger pull as well. So the odds of a one shot stop are higher.
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Old May 11, 2013, 03:22 PM   #4
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I guess a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot gives you several "shots" per pull of the trigger, due to the multiple buckshot pellets. And like someone else said, it's easier to hit your target. Although I'd think at home defense ranges of less than 10 feet the pattern wouldn't spread enough to make it much bigger than the diameter of the shotgun barrel.
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Old May 11, 2013, 04:39 PM   #5
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Quote:
Why is 8 shots from a Garand (or 10 shots from an SKS or other 8-10 shot semi auto rifle) is considered sub-par for a "go-to" rifle by most people, but 6-8 shots from a much slower and higher recoiling 12 gauge pump action shotgun is considered optimal?
Because, some people can't hit what they shoot at, the first 3 times they pull the trigger. Unless it is a scatter gun. There was a time when more than 1 shot without loading was all you had. I say use what you have and be proficient with it, or don't even think about using it for HD.
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Old May 11, 2013, 04:55 PM   #6
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30 rounds of 12 gauge takes up a lot of space, and is heavier compared to 223 rounds.
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Old May 11, 2013, 05:04 PM   #7
JD0x0
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because my property was attacked by 6 people and it could've easily been more. I'd need 100% accuracy and guaranteed 1 hit drops. That doesn't seem reasonable at all. My property is on a mountain, on a private road, behind a locked gate, 6 miles from town. It'd take the police 20+ minutes to respond and it took about 30 minutes, when we called.

Also the point is that the gov't shouldn't decide how many bullets a person gets to use to protect themselves. The criminals will still buy (or make or steal) illegal "high capacity" mags, so I don't see how limiting ammunition capacity is protecting anyone.
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Old May 11, 2013, 05:11 PM   #8
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I guess it is dependent on how many there are of you shooting?
A rifle company or just you all by yourself. With a dozen fellows all shooting at the tangos a couple of you reloading isn't miss from the firing stations. Obviously when there are only one of you the pause in firing can be deafening.
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Old May 11, 2013, 05:22 PM   #9
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One pull of a 12 guage trigger sends 9-20 buckshot projectiles down range depending on the load.

That said, the 12 is quickly falling from favor and has largely been replaced in the military, LE and a great many civilains in favor of a short barreled AR. I guess most folks are discovering that
Quote:
but 6-8 shots from a much slower and higher recoiling 12 gauge pump action shotgun is considered optimal?
this is not optimal at all.
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Old May 11, 2013, 05:29 PM   #10
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My Garand has spare clips and my 1911 has spare magazines, whats this silly nonsense of being restricted to 8 shots?

Chances are if you use more than 3 shots you are in a deep pile of trouble and 30 might not be enough.
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Old May 11, 2013, 05:41 PM   #11
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My opinion is that 8 rounds is probably more than enough for any civilian application. However I completely understand and agree with the thought that it doesn't matter if we need more than 10 or not. The constitution makes no mention of firearm capacity.
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Old May 11, 2013, 06:15 PM   #12
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You want know if 8 is enough until you nine or more, and then it will be too late.
Why is 8 enough, and enough for what?
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Old May 11, 2013, 06:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Why is 8 shots from a Garand .......... is considered sub-par for a "go-to" rifle by most people
The Garand IS NOT SUB-PAR to any rifle.

If you get to the point you fired your "8" rounds you best be headed for or behind cover.............if not, then 80 rounds wont help you.

Any body who knows how to work a Garand knows that it takes a spit second to have another 8 rounds in the rifle and ready to go.
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Old May 11, 2013, 06:47 PM   #14
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My gun, my call !!!

Quote:
Why is 8 enough, and enough for what?
I've been following this thread and I have read the question and still not sure what the OP, is getting at. I'm just waiting for him to reveal more of what he is really trying to communicate. Till then, I'll have to wait and see. ....

Be Safe !!!
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Old May 11, 2013, 06:50 PM   #15
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I like to go to the range and shoot tin cans, lots of them. It's a real pain in the ---- to have to reload a mag after 5 shots. I would prefer to load 30 rounds and shoot them all before having to remove the mag and reload it. Or take lots of loaded 30 round mags to the range and not have to reload any of them at all. What a waste of time.

And what's wrong with having 30 rounds? I don't really think I'll ever get into a shootout other than with tin cans, so why can't I have 30? My car will go 120 but I don't ever take it above 75.
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Old May 11, 2013, 07:09 PM   #16
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Numbers ?? I just watched a police stop in Cleveland in March. Perp jumped out of car fired 37 rounds from a AK 47.Both cops were wounded but perp died !
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Old May 11, 2013, 07:36 PM   #17
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i think a reason that 8 or 10 shots is optimal is because most people don't have a choice, most semi auto shotguns are tube fed and unless you want a 4 ft barrel, that's all you can get., and the majority or people own those because their cheaper and much more common than mag fed, but I guarantee you, anyone that has a 12 ga mag fed probably would desire a much higher capacity
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Old May 11, 2013, 10:28 PM   #18
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I suppose that in my case it's just a bit of laziness.

I rather enjoy just loading ten of those thirty round magazines on the workbench and not having to contend with loose rounds at the range or in the field.

And I enjoy camping in the mountains and being able to engage multiple "attacking pine cones" without having to reload.

But mostly, I just enjoy using Stoner's truly superb AR platform. Both my 5.56MM and 7.62 MM rifles are among my all time favorites.

(I still enjoy my Garands, 1903A3 and SMLEs as well)
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Old May 12, 2013, 12:45 AM   #19
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not sure

I'm not sure what the OP is driving at either.

But.....if you want to see somebody run a Garand like nobody's business, search YOuTube for Jerry Miculek speed shooting (not loading) one.

Aside, I would consider myself well armed with a Garand, but it is a big, heavy rifle that is hard to maneuver in tight places. Mine will not really fit behind the seat of my Toyota pickup, easily anyhow.
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Old May 12, 2013, 10:40 AM   #20
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bamaranger

To say, "just watch Mr. Miculek shoot" is akin to saying "just watch Michaelangelo using a hammer."

Mr. Miculek cannot be compared to mere mortals!
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Old May 12, 2013, 10:56 AM   #21
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I think the Garand was the wonder weapon of it's day and is still an awesome rifle. With some practice it can be reloaded very quickly. But with today's modern weapons why limit yourself to 8-10 rnds. True, in a SD situation, if you need more than 10 rounds you are in a world of Do-Do and more probably won't help. But in a SHTF situation it is my opinion that you will want/need all you can carry and hi-cap mags are the easiest way to accomplish it. JMO
My SKS will accept AK mags by the way and is a very capable weapon. I would much rather have it in my hands than a long hi-cap shotgun.
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Old May 12, 2013, 03:27 PM   #22
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I would not dismiss any rifle. But I do have preferences.

I think an 8 round capacity in a 12 gauge shotgun is accepted because that's about all one is going to get in a practical package. Any magazine more than that requires heavy, large boxes or drums that most guys find objectionable to carry and use. Also bear in mind that each round of shotgun ammo unleashes multiple projectiles (except for slugs, of course). Eight rounds of 00 buck dispenses 72 projectiles. I think in most situations 8 rounds will solve the problem unless one is in combat on the battlefield. In that case, call in armor support and an air strike.
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Old May 13, 2013, 04:08 AM   #23
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Because most people seem to think that they are going to be attacked by a whole mechanized infantry division when they plan out their home defense plan.

If you can't protect yourself with 8 shots, you are either going to be out gunned and lose anyway, or you'll have a hard job explaining the situation in court.

Just like the need to protect your property from a masked gun man 300yards away. Since when do armed burglars start their heist by laying down suppressive fire from 300yards away.
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Old May 13, 2013, 12:35 PM   #24
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Simply put ... I would always prefer to find that at the end of a "situation" I still have rounds in my magazine. While reloading is always an option ... it's an option I would rather not be forced to exercise.

Comments about being "... attacked by a whole mechanized infantry division" and "... if you can't protect yourself with 8 shots ..." make for pithy and smart comments, but don't reflect the reality that I, as the intended victim, intend to dictate what I am armed with for my defense and the magazine capacity available to me.

While a multiple person home invasion is unlikely, having an AR15 with a reliable 30 round (or 40 round) magazine and facing only a single threat means that you are likely to have unfired ammo in your magazine at the end of the "situation".

"Remember, nobody ever complained about having carried too much ammo after a firefight!"

PS ... I fired my first M1 Garand as a Junior ROTC Cadet in 1961, trained with an M14 in 1967 and went to combat with an M16A1 in 1968 ... and I loved all three of them for different reasons.
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Old May 13, 2013, 01:25 PM   #25
Glenn E. Meyer
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I think that a good deal of the issue comes from shotgun mythology.

1. You can't miss
2. It has ultimate stopping power
3. For pump guns, the racking will scare away the bad guy
4. They don't overpenetrate compared to other guns.

Here's a good take:

http://www.krtraining.com/KRTraining...eflonggun.html

I've trained with both and shoot both - I go for the AR if it gets to that level of intensity.

Many of the responses we used to get about the issue were racking and posturing, without aiming as the major reasons for shottie popularity.
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