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Old May 21, 2013, 03:02 PM   #51
Constantine
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Quote:
You're really not paying attention, nor are you being helpful.

Ok..I feel you aren't being helpful either.

I'm paying attention just fine. Just because my opinion differs from yours doesn't mean I'm "wrong" or not "paying attention".

I also wrote to fortify the backyard. Calling me "wrong" every chance you get like that should be an "end all" to the discussion, is a little low too.

Again, just like I know people who are well over their 60's in my old dojo. I gave that advice. OP doesn't like it? Fine. Fortify the backyard.

Just like I know most encounters that I have seen, the criminal has the drop on the citizen. From a LE standpoint mind you. You don't, so I'm "wrong" and what I say is "invalid"?

Nit picking at me isn't helping the OP either.




EDIT: It's an open forum for us to all to answer from our opinions isn't it?
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Old May 21, 2013, 03:15 PM   #52
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Yup, you guys are right. I stand corrected.
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Old May 21, 2013, 03:24 PM   #53
Spats McGee
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Enough of the bickering, please. Let's get back to the OP's questions and quick squabbling over who's being helpful and who's paying attention or not, shall we?
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Old May 21, 2013, 03:34 PM   #54
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The only absolute rule I believe most of us would adhere to is don't shoot unless you absolutely have to. "Absolutely have to" means that failure to shoot will most likely lead to the death or serious bodily injury of yourself, a loved one, someone you are charged to protect, or possibly another person.

For me, I have drawn my weapon twice in self defense but did not have to point it at the person. The first time, some guy tried to run me off the road (after trying to smash me into the median on the highway for honking at him). I moved over two lanes to avoid him after he nearly side swiped me and slammed on the brakes in front of me. When I slowed down, he slowed down. When I sped up, he sped up. Right after he tried to side swipe me, I drew my gun and had it pointed at him, but just under the window so he couldn't see it. If he reached for a weapon, I would have presented my weapon. If he pointed a weapon at me, I would have fired immediately. Someone (I assume was an off duty cop) saw the whole thing and pulled in between us with his windows down. He was holding something towards the guy (I assume a badge) and he told me to take off. Gun drawn and ready in case things got worse, but never presented and no shots fired.

The second situation, I was in a fast food restaurant parking lot late at night (2 am). Three guys were crossing in front of me so I stopped and let them pass. The first two guys pass and the third guy turns towards me right as he is directly in front of the car. He puts his hands on the hood of my car, does a little jump and runs directly towards my window which was open (just picked up order). Amazingly, I was able to go from both hands on the wheel to drawing my gun (under center console) and have it at the ready before he even reached my window. I even had the presence of mind to have it right next to the steering wheel rather than pointing it right at him. Pointing the gun at him may have allowed a gun grab while having it right next to the steering wheel would have enabled me to fired by just turning my wrist. The guy immediately saw the gun and gave me some crap about about just playing around. If I was Miami, I probably would have grabbed him by the throat and shoved the gun in his mouth before asking what he wanted. There were a lot of car jackings back in the day so I hardly feel anyone could be charged with brandishing for doing so. Regardless, no shots were fired and the guy probably had to change his underwear if he was indeed just playing around. If he was intent on robbing me, I definitely thwarted his plans. This is another situation where I drew my gun and did not have to fire. I was ready to act if needed, but thank God I didn't have to shoot.

I have no issues with pulling the trigger and shooting someone if I feel my life or the life of a loved one is in serious danger. Sometimes the mere presentation of a gun will diffuse a situation. If things seem to be getting pretty bad (potential justifiable self-defense situation), I will draw my gun. I will only pull the trigger if I absolutely have to.

I am also sure there are many situations that go unreported where the mere presentation of a gun makes criminals retreat. Few would dare to try and press brandishing charges since they may have criminal records. Self-restraint goes a long way and keeps your life from getting infinitely more complicated!
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Old May 21, 2013, 03:46 PM   #55
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"One should not pull a gun unless under the circumstances the immediate use of the gun would be justified. But if upon presenting the gun the threat ends, e. g., the assailant turns and flees or immediately surrenders, one would not be justified in shooting. " [Frank Ettin]

immediate - 1. Occurring at once; instant.


In other words: "if justified, draw and shoot"

"If you draw, open fire. Otherwise, don't draw." [Jammer Six]

"Absolutely terrible advice and not legally supportable." [Frank Ettin]

Contradictory?

What should I do if a gang of perps have trespassed onto my property (backyard) and have been told to leave and are now 10 feet in front of me and are now rushing me?

I would never back-shoot an assailant in flight, unless of course he was a spree-killer/active shooter.

But as for the perp/s running off, it becomes very difficult if they are rushing me and I draw and fire (to save my life). Truthfully, I doubt the perp will see the gun before they feel the bullet. Some of us folks are pretty quick.
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Old May 21, 2013, 04:00 PM   #56
Brian Pfleuger
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I think the attempt at absolute literalness is a bit silly.

Everyone understands what is meant. You don't draw your gun unless you're WILLING to fire and there is a reasonable expectation that shooting is or will be imminently necessary.

The extremes are "I carry a gun to scare people because I wouldn't ever be able to shoot someone." and "If I clear leather, lead is going to fly."

Frankly, both are stupid.
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Old May 21, 2013, 04:16 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaman
"One should not pull a gun unless under the circumstances the immediate use of the gun would be justified. But if upon presenting the gun the threat ends, e. g., the assailant turns and flees or immediately surrenders, one would not be justified in shooting. " [Frank Ettin]

immediate - 1. Occurring at once; instant.


In other words: "if justified, draw and shoot"
Umm, no. Copying from your quote, Frank said "one should not pull a gun unless under the circumstances immediate use of the gun would be justified." That does not mean "In other words: if justified, draw and shoot." It means do not draw unless you can legally justify shooting.

I am by no means advocating that anyone here allow themselves to be clobbered by an gang of wild maniacs, but thinking along the lines that "if the gun clears leather, I git ta shoot someone," or even "I HAVE to shoot if I draw" is a bad way to view SD shootings. In no jurisdiction of which I am aware is one automatically justified in shooting just because he drew.

I have seen it written on the internet (where, of course, everything MUST be true . . . ) that if you draw your firearm on someone but don't shoot them, then you can be charged with brandishing. Without doing a great deal of research on the issue, I have to say that I find it improbable. Is it impossible? No. I do think it unlikely, though. Besides, let's take a look at two different scenarios, and for the sake of argument, assume that I would be justified in drawing my firearm:
1) I draw my gun on a bad guy. He retreats. I reholster without firing a shot. Under the aforementioned internet theory, I could face a brandishing charge for having pointed a weapon at a guy without just cause.
2) I draw on a bad guy and shoot him, 'cuz, you know, my gun cleared the leather and I've always heard that if I draw, I need to go ahead and shoot to demonstrate that I was justified in drawing my firearm. Now I face all kinds of possible charges: murder, attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon, whatever your state happens to call it.

I'll take Door #1, thank you very much.
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Old May 21, 2013, 04:36 PM   #58
Seaman
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Ahoy McGee,

""Umm, no. Copying from your quote, Frank said "one should not pull a gun unless under the circumstances immediate use of the gun would be justified." That does not mean "In other words: if justified, draw and shoot." It means do not draw unless you can legally justify shooting. "" [Spats McGee]

I'm fine with your interpretation.

As for door #1, no I wouldn't draw my weapon unless I were under imminent deadly threat: i.e. perp is advancing with knife or gun and has made it clear that he intends to rob, assault or kill me. Drawing a gun otherwise can invite all kinds of trouble.

As for door #2, I would not draw my gun, unless there is justification to do so (I am under imminent deadly attack.) Period.

As for Mr. Pfleuger's comments, it does no good to infer people are 'stupid.'

We are all here to get the best advice possible, our lives may depend on it.

Best to all.
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Old May 21, 2013, 04:47 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
...I have seen it written on the internet (where, of course, everything MUST be true . . . ) that if you draw your firearm on someone but don't shoot them, then you can be charged with brandishing. Without doing a great deal of research on the issue, I have to say that I find it improbable. Is it impossible? No. I do think it unlikely, though...
This is how I analyzed that issue (post 16):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

The usual definition of assault, based on the Common Law is:
Quote:
an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.
In the laws of some States this crime might be given another name. For example, in Alabama it's called "menacing." But by whatever name it is called, it is a crime in every State.

So a display of a firearm, when done for the purposes of intimidation or to secure compliance, is, in all States, an assault of some type. You are effectively putting someone in fear of an imminent harmful or offensive contact, i. e., getting shot.

Now in all States it will be a defense against a charge of assault (or any similar crime) if you establish that your assault satisfied the applicable legal standard for justification.

In most States the standard for justifying a threat of lethal force is the same as for justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. In a few, it's a somewhat lesser standard. So in all States if you threaten lethal force you will need to be able to at least show prima facie such threat was legally justified, that is if you want to avoid a conviction for assault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaman
...As for Mr. Pfleuger's comments, it does no good to infer people are 'stupid.'...
Just to clarify, Brian in no way implied anything about you personally. He posited two hypothetical statements, attributed to no one, and characterized the statements as stupid. What he wrote exactly was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger
...The extremes are "I carry a gun to scare people because I wouldn't ever be able to shoot someone." and "If I clear leather, lead is going to fly."

Frankly, both are stupid.
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Last edited by Frank Ettin; May 21, 2013 at 07:01 PM.
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Old May 21, 2013, 06:57 PM   #60
Seaman
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RE: Errors & Omissions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger "...As for Mr. Pfleuger's comments, it does no good to infer people are 'stupid.'... "

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaman ""...The extremes are "I carry a gun to scare people because I wouldn't ever be able to shoot someone." and "If I clear leather, lead is going to fly." Frankly, both are stupid.""

Mr. Ettin:

I think your last two quotes (above) are incorrectly attributed. Please edit.

On the whole, I find your posts most informative.

Thank you for your diligence and industry.

Best to you.
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Old May 21, 2013, 07:03 PM   #61
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaman
I think your last two quotes (above) are incorrectly attributed. Please edit.
Oops, sorry. You're correct, and I goofed. I've fixed it.
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Old May 21, 2013, 08:17 PM   #62
Shane Tuttle
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Depending on your local laws:

Drawing a firearm doesn't automatically you're brandishing it. Ever heard of low-ready? Why would some of the best firearms instructors teach this for more reason than shooting a paper target?

If opportunity permits, drawing to low-ready in an escalating situation might be the best avenue to end the threat.

rmocarsky, a few members have provided three key words in helping you be informed: Ability, opportunity, and jeopardy. A book I highly recommend buying is written by none other than fellow Staff member pax and Mark Walters.

http://store.whitefeatherpress.com/b...d-america.html

Lessons From Armed America was a very well written book which hammered home those three key terms and educates sound decision making on when and when NOT to use a firearm.
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Old May 21, 2013, 10:38 PM   #63
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Quote:
Posted by Seaman: What should I do if a gang of perps have trespassed onto my property (backyard) and have been told to leave and are now 10 feet in front of me and are now rushing me?
Ans: the same thing you would do if the same persons were to rush you in the same manner in any other outdoor location.

Forget "trespass", forget "my property". When it come to using or threatening deadly force, those factors are irrelevant.

In one or two jurisdictions, one may present a firearm under circumstances in which physical force would be justified. Know your laws.
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Old May 22, 2013, 10:34 AM   #64
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Quote:
If threatened by a perp (or perps) who have opened my gate and tresspassed into my fenced backyard, I do not draw my handgun, because I do not want to invoke a boatload of Murphy by brandishing, which btw is illegal here in Michigan.

First, I say 3 words in a loud firm voice : "STOP, GO BACK." If there is time I repeat the command. If they do not comply, I draw my CCW and fire. If my gun clears leather it goes boom.

I find this very confusing indeed. You're reluctant to draw your weapon when you have a burglary in progress because of your preceived interpretation of your state's brandishing ordinance, yet you're not reluctant to fire your weapon if you decide to pull it out?


There's simply a WHOLE lot of armchair sillyness going on in this thread. Lot's of macho "By god, If I pull it out, I'm shooting with it" nonsense.


IMO, pre-basing your actions on what the local cops tell you is "ok to do" is extremely poor planning. If anyone believes that what your local genderme suggests is ok to do in a lethal encounter, I suggest you get that opinion in writing, signed by that officer and submitted to the governmental authority that officer works for, for review and confirmation.

Once you shoot the burglar, or begin the process of burying your wife, the "but officer Smith told me that was ok" will quickly become meaningless.


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Old May 22, 2013, 11:07 AM   #65
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I have only pulled a gun on someone once, didn't shoot because I thought it would land me in prison I was so.. close to. I will tell the story because it has to do with yard issues.

Once years ago I was staying in a bachelor pad some of the guys their had a fight with some others out and about earlier in the evening.

So about 2am I hear some noise and go out in the yard (large yard with a drive way and about 4 cars) with a 9mm hicap down the small of my back to find 4 guys with bats and clubs marching on the yard they start bashing the glass out of the first car they get to.

I yelled "HEY" they saw me and started advancing to me with the bats and clubs raised. I pulled the gun, the lead guy saw it and had a moment of shock so I ran with it, told him to turn around put the gun on his heart and kicked his legs from under him. The rest of the guys ran away.

a few seconds later some people came out of our house saw the damage and started beating the guy. i told them to stop because he was taking a lot of damage and it would probably kill him after a much more. So they guy limps, crawls and gasps off into the shadows.

15min later the police show up with reports of a "kidnapping" we say "don't know" but someone vandalized the car.
They get a call on the radio they found a half conscious guy crawling in the street a few blocks away.
We say "don't know" but someone vandalized the car.

The police separate the guys with the bats and gets 3 different stories, we refused to talk to the police about it= "don't know" but someone vandalized the car.

I was very worried about Monday and what the prosecuting attorney would put together out of this. Turned out he had no case.

I feel I came very close to going to prison that night shooting the gun or not. I feel if I would of shot the gun I probably would have had a lengthy jury trail and....?

Their is usually no black and white in fights. But there is usually a prosecuting attorney trying to make cases.

I still say I don't pull guns unless I am going to use them, which is not always true But.. it keeps the intention there. If you don't have intention you are just waving a gun around like a heartless scarecrow.
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Old May 22, 2013, 01:07 PM   #66
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Quote:
Posted by deepcreek: So about 2am I hear some noise and go out in the yard (large yard with a drive way and about 4 cars) with a 9mm hicap...
It is rarely prudent to venture outside to investigate a noise.

Significant risks include the following:
  • Ambush;
  • being mistaken for a criminal by an arriving first responder who has already been summoned, or by another armed citizen wit hte same idea, and possibly being shot; and
  • having one's defense of justification weakened by the fact of having ventured out armed, should force, deadly or otherwise, be used.

Over the years we have seen example after example of unfortunate results. Best to stay in a position of safety unless one is a police officer in communication with and supported by other officers.
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Old May 22, 2013, 01:43 PM   #67
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"Never rely on a verbal comment from a policeman for a legal opinion. Consult a criminal trial attorney who is knowledgeable of the use of force laws." [OldMarksman]

"I find this very confusing indeed." [SgtLumpy]

Ahoy Swabs,

OldMarksman: I studied CCW law pursuant to obtaining a Concealed Pistol License. My Instructor has two decades experience with the Detroit PD, both on the streets and in the courts. In addition, I have queried my local PD (walking distance), where a senior detective (also 2 decades experience) has given me advice. And of course, I have spoken to many regular cops along the chain. Their advice has been harmoniously similar, seems we are on the same page. And my nephew is an experienced criminal attorney.

SgtLumpy: Sorry to be so obtuse. By "do not want to invoke a boatload of Murphy by brandishing," I mean I'm not going to draw my gun and use it as a negotiating tool. The criminal often has the advantage and I won't give him another one by drawing my gun (and not shooting). For example: while I'm yapping and pointing my gun at them, in the dark, my neighbor (a cop) mistakes me for a perp and puts one in my back... or one of the perps surrepititously compromises my 6 and puts a blade in my back... or the perps hit the deck and shoot me... etc. Its all bad. Remember perps have a plan A, plan B, etc. I grew up in the big city, and I've been other places too.

I will see what I can do about getting something in writing from the appropriate authority.

All I want to do is get safely to my bed and dream of beautiful women.

Thank you both for your comments.
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Old May 22, 2013, 02:23 PM   #68
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Maybe I'm wrong, but "holding someone at gunpoint" seems like it would only be problematic if you were intending on doing it for an extended period of time.
If the situation ever arose I'd probably either instruct them to leave and let the police deal with finding them again, or if that seemed like a bad idea for some reason, I'd have them cuff themselves to something immovable and wait for the police to show up.

To the OP - if open carry is legal in your neck of the woods this might be one of the few times I'd suggest it. A large visible handgun on your hip when you ask them to leave might send them on their way without you ever having to draw. Plus, on the off chance that you ever did need it, it would be more readily accessible.
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Old May 22, 2013, 02:27 PM   #69
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In the OP's case, I might see the "No Trespassing" signs, and raise with "Beware the Dog" signs, then get a couple of trained dogs. Rotties, if one likes big and menacing, or Malinois, if one prefers more compact but super intelligent.

Mean-looking dogs have worked wonders for keeping local delinquents out of friends' yards in the past.
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Old May 22, 2013, 11:36 PM   #70
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Quote:
Posted by Seaman: I will see what I can do about getting something in writing from the appropriate authority.
Forget getting something in writing unless it is consistent with Posts 7, 8, 16, 33, 42, 43, and 57. Short version: do not draw unless it is justified, and do not believe for a moment that just because you have drawn, you may lawfully fire.

Quote:
All I want to do is get safely to my bed and dream of beautiful women.
Then search on "ADEE" and live by it.
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Old May 23, 2013, 02:07 PM   #71
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Quote:
Then search on "ADEE" and live by it.
I searched ADEE and found:

The Association for Dental Education in Europe
Adee Plumbing
Alvey A. Adee - Diplomat
Adee Phelan - British hairdresser
Adee Kaye Watches

Which one were you referring to?
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Old May 23, 2013, 03:16 PM   #72
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http://blog.hsoi.com/2009/02/11/self-defense-acronyms/

Skip and Johh Hsoi - great guys, btw.
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Old May 23, 2013, 05:04 PM   #73
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Sorry, had to ask an earlier poster,
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepcreek
Many people carrying gun are not aggressive enough to use them and many people get them stripped away and used against them. Are you prepared to shoot an unarmed person who tries to strip your weapon?
I've heard this bandied about before by untold number of anti rights persons - have any stats on how many lawful carriers do have their guns taken away from them? Please don't include police.

Defensive Display is useful enough that Arizona codified it into law.

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....13&DocType=ARS

Quote:
13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition
A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.
B. This section does not apply to a person who:
1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.
2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.
C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.
D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:
1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.
2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.
3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver00LT
If you were man enough to pull the weapon on a threat you better be ready to use it.
I tried doing the chest beating Tarzan yell for ya - gave myself a coughing fit. Macho's got nothing whatsoever to do with it.
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Old May 23, 2013, 05:34 PM   #74
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"Then search on "ADEE" and live by it. " [OldMarksman]

Agreed, OldMarksman, you wanna know if there's a way out, I'm off the patio and into the house, barricade the door, and 911...not 1911.

And should the perps break down the door, well... they won't get another verbal warning.

Best to you.
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Old May 23, 2013, 10:02 PM   #75
OldMarksman
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Quote:
Posted by Armoredman: Defensive Display is useful enough that Arizona codified it into law.
If you study the history of the law, it was less the purported "usefulness" of defensive display than the perceived need to protect citizens from unjust prosecution for aggravated assault that led to its enactment.

A reasonable belief that physical force is necessary is a prerequisite, and the law does not mention drawing a firearm.

There are a couple of states that permit the actual presentation of a weapon under certain circumstances in which deadly force is not immediately necessary.
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