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Old November 15, 2013, 02:15 PM   #101
dgludwig
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Regarding the question about cleaning the CZ a few posts back, it's been my experience that you can reach a lot of the areas of the pistol that needs cleaning without resorting to a field-strip after every range trip, particularly if only a relatively few rounds were expended. You can clean the barrel from the muzzle if care is used to keep the rod from rubbing against the crown or, alternatively, you can use the pull-through, Bore Snake method. However, there's no getting past the requirement to field-strip the pistol for cleaning purposes after it really starts to get dirty (for me, that usually occurs after five or six hundred rounds or so, depending on how much fouling different kinds of ammunition leave behind).

I'm glad you like your pistol. The CZ models 75/85 are relatively affordable, yet classic pistols in the truest sense.
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Old November 15, 2013, 02:20 PM   #102
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Quote:
that usually occurs after five or six hundred rounds or so

::eye twitch::

Nothing against you. Classic line coming up: "It's not you, it's me."

I cannot leave ANY of my handguns dirty for longer than a day. If I take them to the range or train with them, it doesn't matter if I shoot 10, 50, 100+ rounds. They're getting taken down and a deep shiny cleaning. If it's a Glock or SIG, it'll be detail stripped and cleaned. Since those two are usually on my life duty watch.

Just the way I'm wired. O_O
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Old November 15, 2013, 06:23 PM   #103
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I used to be that way, Constantine. I actually used to like cleaning guns in my younger days (even liked washing and waxing my cars ). Not so much, anymore. I guess I've gotten a little lazy (complacent is a nicer word) as I've gotten older but I have come to understand that rigorously stripping and cleaning my guns after each and every outing just isn't necessary to keep a firearm well-maintained. On the other hand, I concede that there's no downside to field-stripping a gun after every time you send a bullet down-range, so long as the break-down is done judiciously ("over-cleaning", if that's possible, or cleaning done without adhering to basic cleaning principles can be more injurious to a firearm than leaving it unattended).
So I understand where you're coming from and I applaud your devotion to always keeping your firearms spic and span. I just don't think it's at all that necessary much of the time.
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Old November 15, 2013, 07:43 PM   #104
Walt Sherrill
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I clean my guns from time to time.

Many of us learned about gun care from our fathers or grandfathers. Some of our fathers (if you're old enough) and many of our grandfathers, served during WWII, when ammunition was very corrosive and DEMANDED regular, frequent cleaning after use. Guns could literally freeze up in a day or so, if left inactive after firing. Those GIs were brainwashed to clean frequently and well. Ammunition is generally NOT corrosive, nowadays -- unless you're shooting milsurp ammo.

The whole situation can be compared to the old practice of changing auto oil every 1000 miles (which was the standard when I started taking care of a car many years ago); now, the factory calls for changing oil every 5000-7000 miles. *(Oil technology has improved, as have engines...) But you can still change that oil every 1000 miles, if you like -- it won't hurt anything but your pocketbook.

I've had more than one gunsmith tell me they thought some guns got more wear from being cleaned frequently than from shooting.

You do what you've got to do when it comes to guns and their cleaning -- or you do what makes you feel best... but don't fool yourself that the GUN needs the frequent cleaning. It's YOU who need to clean the gun. <grin>
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Old November 15, 2013, 08:46 PM   #105
charlesc
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My instructor recommended against getting CZ 75b
He said there are better pistols.
I wonder how does CZ 75bd compares to CZ 75b model?
Is trigger of CZ 75b smoother than that of Cz 75bd?
what else feels different?
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Old November 15, 2013, 09:13 PM   #106
Walt Sherrill
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Quote:
My instructor recommended against getting CZ 75b
He said there are better pistols.
I wonder how does CZ 75bd compares to CZ 75b model?
Is trigger of CZ 75b smoother than that of Cz 75bd?
what else feels different?
Your instructor is opinionated, but not necessarily knowledgeable. (You can say "there are better pistols" when talking about ANY gun. I wonder if he's even shot a CZ-75B?)

The only difference between the 75B and the 75BD is that the BD model has a decocker rather than a safety -- and with the BD, you can't start from "cocked and locked." Except for that, they're virtually identical -- the trigger mechanism the same.
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Old November 15, 2013, 09:17 PM   #107
charlesc
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yeah, seems so I wonder if he shot any CZ at all.
I should clarify that he said CZs are good pistols but there are better pistols than them.
So are you saying trigger pull in CZ 75bd and CZ 75b models feel the same, no grit in bd model trigger?
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Old November 15, 2013, 11:50 PM   #108
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My BD breaks incredibly clean in single action, especially after a couple hundred rounds.

There's no grit in the double action, but it's long and heavy.

If you're carrying the B, it's probably with the safety on in single action only. If you're carrying the BD, you're likely going to decock so the first shot is in double action and every shot after will be single action.

I got the BD because I don't like the thought of carrying a gun with a safety. I should be able to grab it and fire. The longer, heavier first shot makes this safer.
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Old November 16, 2013, 12:22 AM   #109
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There was an instructor on a gun blog, I can't quite remember, who did say he had more issues with CZs than other mainline brands, and one example was a class with 3 and a clone. Interesting discussion in the comments.

I've heard a ton of positive about them though, too, so...who knows.

Ah, here we go, it was ToddG at pistol-training. I don't know his credentials.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218
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Old November 16, 2013, 02:22 AM   #110
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I don't know his credentials.
http://pistol-training.com/articles/...tols-pros-cons
Todd Louis Green has worked in the firearms industry since 1998, including instructing for the NRA Range, Beretta, and SIG-Sauer. He has over 1,000 hours of formal firearms and combatives training. A 3-time “Advanced” rated shooter at Rogers Shooting School, Todd is also a graduate of the NRA Tactical Pistol Instructor Development program and a 3 division Master-ranked IDPA competitor. Todd is a certified Beretta, Glock, Heckler & Koch, SIG-Sauer, and Smith & Wesson armorer; certified Simunition force-on-force instructor; and certified Emergency First Responder. He is a long time member of IALEFI, IDPA, and USPSA.
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Old November 16, 2013, 02:27 AM   #111
LockedBreech
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CZ 75 may be more gun than I bargained for

Thanks John, I should have done my homework better.

Not saying he's necessarily right about CZ but I think his experiences bear consideration, especially since in the comments he seems like a pretty level-headed guy and not particularly anti-CZ.
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Old November 16, 2013, 02:33 AM   #112
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It's certainly a data point to consider, however it's worthwhile to note that his comments from the article seem to be based on a relatively small sample of CZ pistols.

My personal CZ75 is not a reliability star, however it has been 100% with brass-cased ammunition so far. To be fair, there's sufficient information out there indicating that the guns are not intended for use with anything other than brass-cased ammunition to suggest that my use of it was ill-advised.

It also isn't that hard to find people reporting extractor difficulties with this model. Of course it's not hard to find people reporting issues with virtually any brand out there.
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Old November 16, 2013, 04:43 AM   #113
dakota.potts
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Interesting. Nearing 1,000 rounds without a single hiccup of anything I have fed it. To the point of the article, though, I haven't shot it at a high intensity or high volume scenario.
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Old November 16, 2013, 09:16 AM   #114
Walt Sherrill
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Over the past 15 years, I've probably owned and regularly shot 10 CZs of various types, and a number of "clones." I've owned MORE CZs than that, but picked them up at good prices and sold them for profits. This included a number of pre-Bs, and some hi-gloss blued 85 Combats. Beautiful guns, those hi-gloss blued 85 Combats...

I've never really had problems with any of them.

The ONLY CZ I have at the moment is an 85 Combat, which I've had since 1998, or thereabouts. The first magazine or two I experienced premature slide lock and immediately took it to my gunsmith. He noticed some "nudge" marks on the tip of the slide stop, removed a bit of metal off the slide stop, and it's been 100% ever since -- with well over 10K rounds through it. It's satin nickel, and still looks like new. The only maintenance -- lighter recoil spring (using a BHP spring) and replacement mag springs.

I also have a custom AT-84s, which is based on an early Tanfoglio version of the CZ, and it's one of my favorite guns. The gunsmith -- I bought it used, and it was supposedly worked on by Jim Boland --made it wonderful. (I don't know for sure that Boland did the work, and he's now dead -- but some of the enhancements LOOK LIKE HIS WORK, on guns that I know he built. If not his work, it's a good copy, and wonderfully done.) I've had a number of Witnesses and several Sphinxes. I have not had any of the Israeli CZ-pattern guns, or a Magnum Research gun (except an ASAI ONE PRO in .45, which I sold, but now regret having sold.)

With the exception of a Witness Sport Long Slide (.45), which had a major barrel problem and which had a FAILED sight (one of their expensive super sights), and which was not under warranty, they've all been 100%.

I'm now exploring in a different direction, and have a number of Glocks and SIGs, and a tuned S&W M&P Pro (in 9mm) which is fast becoming a favorite.
I have shot, but never owned any H&K handguns -- but have owned various other guns, including 1911s. Every manufacturer has a problem gun, from time to time.

I find it unusual, however, to hear of multiple CZ problems from one rental site or training location -- as in the example cited. One reason for my disbelief is until very recently, CZs were still relatively rare and just not encountered that often. That said, I would suspect there were also problems with SIGs and Glocks at those sites, but they just aren't remembered by the instructor, because those guns aren't "new" and worthy of special attention. At the range where I shoot, they don't really have problems with ANY of their guns, and CZs are in the rental mix. They just clean them regularly and they all keep on ticking. The examples cited may be legitimate, but I would argue they aren't necessarily typical.
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Old November 16, 2013, 10:55 AM   #115
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I'm not sure what happened in Mr. Green's class, but I've only seen two CZ pistols that needed work. One had a bad extractor spring, and the other shipped with a bad magazine. The first one was in 1995, and the second was in 2008. That's 13 years apart.

I've seen and dealt with a couple of hundred of their guns in the meantime. I've never seen any issues.

That they may not like steel-cased ammunition is not a significant concern for me. Other than that, I have owned three of their pistols, none of which was picky about ammunition in the least.
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Old November 17, 2013, 12:34 PM   #116
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There was a lot of bias in that article and the comments section, especially when it was exposed that some of the statements written in the article were not actually what occurred. It's OK, it's the same when Glock fanboys go nuts when I mention how many of them have failed on me. He is entitled to his opinion based on his personal observations, and so am I.

Back to present day, (that was 3 years ago), and our newest CZ owner, once again, congrats on a fine purchase and have fun with it!
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Old November 17, 2013, 01:26 PM   #117
Walt Sherrill
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I read through the entire chain of messages on the FOUR CZ FAILURES.

My only conclusion is that many people deal with their choices of guns, religion, and politics in much the same manner: a little logic and a lot of emotion.
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Old November 18, 2013, 06:34 AM   #118
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Well said

Great response Walt. Anyone who is fearful of their CZ's reliability after the reading of those comments is welcome to send them to me.



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Old November 19, 2013, 10:29 AM   #119
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I've got two CZ-75B's and love them. Not sure why you are having trouble racking the slide. Here is one thing I have found that might help you. If you start with the gun slide locked open hold the gun with the muzzle pointing up at a 45 degree angle and slam the magazine into the gun, 99% of time the slide will slam shut by itself. This helps me a lot in competition.
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