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Old May 8, 2013, 11:50 PM   #1
nhbmaing
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Am I wrong??

I was having a discussion about why I carry a handgun. I was asked "oh, so if some crazy person starts shooting in a mall, you can take him out?" My answer was no. My gun is there to protect me and my family, not the general public. That is the job of police officers, which I am not. My first goal would be to get out unharmed and only use my weapon if absolutely necessary. I was told this is a selfish attitude, but with chaos going on in an active shooter situation, I could be ID'ed as another attacker and taken out by another CCW holder or the police. It's a complicated situation but at the end of the day the goal is survival, not being a hero. Maybe I'm not getting it.
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Old May 9, 2013, 12:12 AM   #2
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Am I wrong??

You're right, but someone making the choice to intercede on behalf of others is also right. This is a VERY personal decision, because it boils down to the individual identifying what they are or are not willing to risk their physical, emotional, financial, legal, and moral well being on. Nobody has the right to tell another person what they should die for.

What is actually selfish is one person acting entitled to have another person risk life and limb for them.
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Old May 9, 2013, 12:26 AM   #3
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i agree with RBid statement, even though it is complex issue.
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Old May 9, 2013, 12:31 AM   #4
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It's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't -- which means it's just something to square with your own conscience without trying to please the world at large.

On the one hand, if you would intervene to stop a mass murder event such as a mall shooting, you're plainly a wannabe ninja warrior dude who should not be allowed to own or carry weapons.

On the other hand, if you would not intervene to stop a mass murder event such as a mall shooting, you're plainly a selfish coward who should not be allowed to own or carry weapons.

Me? I've made my choice, and done the homework necessary to make my decisions stick. Don't too much care what either camp has to say about it.

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Old May 9, 2013, 12:55 AM   #5
nhbmaing
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Sounds about right. Hopefully nothing ever happens but I practice and train like it could. The responsibility of carrying is mind blowing.


Glad to find a decent bunch of individuals on TFL. It's nice to hear other opinions!
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Old May 9, 2013, 12:56 AM   #6
JimmyR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhbmaing
I was having a discussion about why I carry a handgun. I was asked "oh, so if some crazy person starts shooting in a mall, you can take him out?" My answer was no. My gun is there to protect me and my family, not the general public. That is the job of police officers, which I am not. My first goal would be to get out unharmed and only use my weapon if absolutely necessary. I was told this is a selfish attitude, but with chaos going on in an active shooter situation, I could be ID'ed as another attacker and taken out by another CCW holder or the police. It's a complicated situation but at the end of the day the goal is survival, not being a hero. Maybe I'm not getting it.

Your friend should consider if running/hiding in an active shooter enviornment would be a selfish attitude as well.
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Old May 9, 2013, 09:48 AM   #7
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I was having a discussion about why I carry a handgun. I was asked "oh, so if some crazy person starts shooting in a mall, you can take him out?" My answer was no. My gun is there to protect me and my family, not the general public.
Wow...really?

What has the world come to...That upsets me tremendously that people have that type of mentality.
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Old May 9, 2013, 10:01 AM   #8
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Rob Pincus, Personal Defense Network ( I also think he hangs our here but don't remember his user name), put out an excellent DVD on "Active Shooter Response".

I highly recommend this DVD to anyone who plans on getting to a place where you might encounter an active shooter, which means basically stepping out your door.

Besides avoiding being shot by the active shooter, it covers protecting your self from responding LE and other CCW holders who may or may not be in the area.

I'm not going to go over what he says, you can find that by googling PDN on the internet and find the advertisement for the DVD.

Get the DVD, its informative and just might save your life or keep you out of trouble.

Duh......His user name is "Rob Pincus"..........who didn't know that.
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Old May 9, 2013, 10:16 AM   #9
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There are far too many variables in your question.

This is a situational question, with no right or wrong answer to fit all conditions.

If you will recall, the individual in Arizona who was armed chose to physically intervene rather than use his firearm.

He assessed the situation, and reacted correctly. Other situations must be individuall assessed and response based on that assessment.
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Old May 9, 2013, 10:17 AM   #10
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Quote:
The responsibility of carrying is mind blowing.
The reality of knowing that carrying alone makes me realize that by having it, my whole world of decisions in a what to do cases change dramatically because of my responsibility and i can see how scary that can be.

Furthermore to the op, I know a woman personally who owned a gun, became a victim of a home invasion, failed to shoot and her own gun was taken and she was shot as a result, with her own gun.

Seriously consider your choice to carry if you have to think about using it even if to defend someone else. The last thing you would want to happen is for one of your own to have died in a situation you described and that the stranger that was carrying never fired. Even more, say he only fired and saved the life of himself and his family while he allowed your son or daughter to die first.

I can't sugar coat this any more than i already have and no one can make you put your life on the line for a stranger, but in my eyes if you think you are better than a stranger when you value yourself more and that is something that none of us can change .....character.
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Old May 9, 2013, 10:44 AM   #11
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Wow...really?

What has the world come to...That upsets me tremendously that people have that type of mentality.
I agree
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Old May 9, 2013, 10:56 AM   #12
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I just have to add to that, how do you think the ani-gun people will handle this publicly?

Headlines reading something to the effect Pro gun rights failed to save lives?

That all the more would support their belief that guns should only be in the hands of police and government and not in the hands of a citizen.

I believe it would reflect worse than if no one there had a weapon!

Furthermore these questions should have been answered for anyone before you started carrying. Makes no since to walk into the world having doubts about what to do in a case like this.

Recognizing if the situation calls for your predetermined causes to use your weapon are different...this is something you should have already decided on.
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Old May 9, 2013, 10:57 AM   #13
nhbmaing
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I think I need to do some research into the legal aspects of self defense shooting. I've been taking a tactical rifle/pistol class for about a year (two weekends a month) and I'm always striving to get better. But my only worry is that I get arrested for using my firearm to end a threat.

kraigwy, I'm definitely going to check out that Rob Pincus DVD. Sounds like it will be very helpful. As far as I'm concerned information is just as powerful as the gun I carry.
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Old May 9, 2013, 11:05 AM   #14
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In my opinion, there's no right or wrong answer. Assuming a mall mass shooting/murder situation, how I would handle it would depend completely on the circumstances. If I were alone, by myself, and assuming I had a clear shot, I would likely take it. If I were with my family, I would draw my gun, but my #1 priority would be getting my family out of harms way, even if I had a clear shot at the crazy person. If I had an escape route in this situation, I would take that, regardless if I had a clear shot. Of course, if we were cornered, I'd do what I would have to do.
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Old May 9, 2013, 11:14 AM   #15
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You're only wrong in having a discussion about it. If you're CCing, no one should know you're CCing.
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Old May 9, 2013, 11:18 AM   #16
Gaerek
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You're only wrong in having a discussion about it. If you're CCing, no one should know you're CCing.
That depends. If it's a trusted friend or family member, I don't see the problem. A stranger? Different story altogether. It really depends on who you're discussing it with.
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Old May 9, 2013, 11:24 AM   #17
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That upsets me tremendously that people have that type of mentality.
Its as personal and individual a decision as it is for a person to even arm themselves. We might like to think that everyone can be armed and everyone can make decisions about the use of deadly force that fits in with their conscience, but the reality of the issue will not match our fantasies.

The reasons people go out into the world armed vary. I admit, my first duty is to defend my loved ones.
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Old May 9, 2013, 11:25 AM   #18
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To those who are criticizing the OP, bear in mind the Clint Eastwood line, "A man's gotta know his limitations."

A CCW type who chooses to engage an active shooter can easily put others at risk.

1) He could misinterpret a situation, and engage a victim who was already engaged in lawful self-defense;

2) She could misinterpret the situation, and engage another armed Samaritan or a plainclothes cop;

3) He could engage a valid target, but miss and end up shooting innocents;

4) She could engage a valid target, lose the gunfight, and draw the shooter's attention and wrath to her own family.

So, as Pax and others have noted, the correct answer will vary. The nature of the scenario, and the perceptions and abilities of the CCW carrier, should affect each decision.
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Old May 9, 2013, 11:25 AM   #19
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protecting myself and my family takes precedence but if I were to find myself in a situation where I could stop the blood shed myself then I would not hesitate to do so. even if I got my family outside and the shooting was still going on inside I would probably have a hard time sitting outside and waiting for the cops....

the idea of getting a CCW license so you can play off duty cop every time you leave is stupid and probably speaks volumes about a persons EGO and delusions but if you have the ability to help others and don't take it because your first obligation is to get yourself out then that's your perogative, I personally don't think I could do it.
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Old May 9, 2013, 11:46 AM   #20
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Somehow i think the OP's post was misinterpreted between what was written as to what was meant. Correct me if i am wrong....

Op clearly stated he/she would not shoot to defend someone else...gave the reason why and asked if they were wrong.

They did not ask if they should or should not shoot given any situation or scenario....it was clearly stated that they would not shoot period to defend anyone other than themselves or their family.

No scenario was covered or suggested that they ever would shoot after stating i would not shoot period. Big difference from never would given a scenario.


Just so that everyone is clear, in my posts I am not trying to trap the op in their words, i am just responding to them as clearly written.
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Old May 9, 2013, 11:51 AM   #21
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Am I wrong??

So let me get this right, to automatically say you'd do whatever you can to stop it. Is wrong. But to say right off the the bat that you will do nothing nor would you care is fine?

Morals today are lacking.

MLeake makes awesome points.

But my first question needs an answer.
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Old May 9, 2013, 11:52 AM   #22
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Wow...really?

What has the world come to...That upsets me tremendously that people have that type of mentality.
This is a very sticky wicket. Being trained is one thing. Being an off duty LEO is another and attempting to help in a situation you might not understand might have you attempting to subdue the good guy as opposed to the bad guy. I don't know that there is a good answer for this question or not.

It is a troubling scenario for sure.
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Old May 9, 2013, 12:04 PM   #23
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I want to clarify my original statement. This is not a black or white issue. I overly simplified an active mass murder situation. The actions I would take would be directly based on the situation. I wouldn't automatically shoot on an active shooter just because I have a clear shot. I wouldn't automatically run for the exit with my family in the same situation. There are so many complex issues when it comes to this. I carry a gun, not because I'm afraid of a mass shooting and I want to be some kind of hero. I carry a gun as protection for myself and my family. That's the #1 thing. How that would actually play out in a shooting situation would depend on the situation.

Would I be against taking a shot at the shooter if I could? No. But that doesn't mean I would. Not shooting doesn't mean I don't care about others, it just means that it would be the right thing to do for the situation.

Running doesn't make me a coward either. It just means that it was the right thing to do for the situation.
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Old May 9, 2013, 12:07 PM   #24
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In my opinion it is better to die trying to save others than to run away and live to fight another day. I could not live with myself if innocent people were killed because I did nothing. Just my Two cents but I am required to act Regardless.
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Old May 9, 2013, 12:13 PM   #25
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This is a very sticky wicket. Being trained is one thing. Being an off duty LEO is another and attempting to help in a situation you might not understand might have you attempting to subdue the good guy as opposed to the bad guy. I don't know that there is a good answer for this question or not.
He was only responding to fact that the op stated he clearly would not use his weapon to save someone else in any scenario.

The op wrote his post to state that in no situation would he do so. The scenario was for reasons not to, but he made a final mental determination to never engage except to save him or his family.

I understand that he may not have meant it that way but the op stated his and his only so the response by Constantine was a response to the am i wrong question.

Given what was clearly stated and asked it was a proper and justified response to the statement and the question that followed.
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